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Thread: Uechi Ryu, is it Karate?

  1. #46
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    Thanks Bruce.

    There are people here who call what they practice Paingainoon Kung Fu and Paingainoon-ryu Karate. But like I said, all of what they've learned is Uechi-ryu and while certain people have tried to "reclaim" the origins of the system by training differently, etc. I don't see any real basis for this to occur as there aren't any real connections with Shushiwa's other students and their descendants (if they still exist) in China.

    There were originally only three kata and they are the backbone of the system. Uechi Kanei invented five more, bringing the total to eight, for the purpose of retaining students and introducing the concepts more gradually.

    Mattson sensei practices all eight kata and all eight kata are accepted by all of the Uechi-ryu organizations.
    Regards,

    Jeffrey Luz-Alterman

  2. #47
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    Default so, hold on, wait a minute...

    So, Uechi Kanbun did add his own katas, and he's okinawan, so that goes to show that there's an extension in the art beyond pangai noon as was my original question, unless the three kata became stretched out into eight, im not sure because you said that he invented five, yet you also said that he wanted to introduce the concepts gradually. Now, my second question would be why would people want to have the three original kata instead of the extra ones? Is the original art of pangainoon lost in China? It wouldn't make sense otherwise. what's going on exactly?
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    Brendan Lanza

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by brendan V Lanza View Post
    So, Uechi Kanbun
    It was Kanbun's son, Kanei.

    did add his own katas, and he's okinawan, so that goes to show that there's an extension in the art beyond pangai noon as was my original question,
    I guess if you want to think about it like that. The other five don't really contain any new techniques.

    unless the three kata became stretched out into eight, im not sure because you said that he invented five, yet you also said that he wanted to introduce the concepts gradually.
    Right. There's a pretty big gap between the first kata (Sanchin) and the second (Seisan) in terms of the complexity of techniques. So, three kata were created to introduce students to techniques and concepts more slowly and also to hold their attention as they studied.

    Now, my second question would be why would people want to have the three original kata instead of the extra ones?
    I have no idea. Some of the people who do "pangainoon-ryu", sometimes "shorei ryu" or whatever still practice the five kata invented by Kanei, I believe. I don't really no any of these groups so I don't know why they left Uechi-ryu or what is meant in terms of technique by there attempt to "reclaim the origins" and what not. It's the same stuff as far as I can tell.

    Is the original art of pangainoon lost in China? It wouldn't make sense otherwise. what's going on exactly?
    It's hard to tell. It's quite possible that the art is dead in China. It's also possible that it's simply quite small and that it simply hasn't been in contact with the Uechi people who've gone to China.
    Regards,

    Jeffrey Luz-Alterman

  4. #49
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    Applying the module used in Korea, the rule seems to be that once an art has been modified in deference to the needs of the new "host" country, the art shifts from being "owned" by the source country. In the example of Hapkido, there is much controversey over this dynamic. Some people, asserting that they teach what CHOI taught, and Choi taught what TAKEDA taught tend to view Hapkido as "relocated DRAJJ". There have been many long and passionate threads about this. OTOH there are folks who believe that once Choi returned to Korea and started teaching, small but meaningful changes occurred resulting in a shift away---- even if only marginally---- from what CHOI learned in Japan thus making the result "Korean".

    My sense is this latter case might be similar to what Uechi did when he brought his material back from China. I don't think he taught for a number of years at first (see: Mattson) so there might have been time to consider how best to represent his material to a non-Chinese population. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by drosera99 View Post
    It's hard to tell. It's quite possible that the art is dead in China. It's also possible that it's simply quite small and that it simply hasn't been in contact with the Uechi people who've gone to China.
    That is one plausible way to see it. The second half of the 19th century was a period of civil unrest, civil wars and wars against foreign countries, and there was huge destruction in Fuzhien and a great migration. The Okinawan Uechi ryu, Goju ryu and Ruey ryu would be the descendants of Fuzhien schools that disappeared in those years. There are some testimonies about Miyagi Chojun's visit to Fuzhien in search of Higashionna's sensei and his place of training in China, but they are all second hand testimonies, so many people do not believe them.

    Also, Communist government tried to assimilate the old traditional martial arts schools, in order to replace them with his newly created wushu (or "gymnastic kung fu"), so it hasn't been until very recently that any government support has been directed to research old traditional martial arts. The quantity (and quality) of old schools that have disappeared in China in the last 150 years is huge.

  6. #51
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    Somebody correct me if I am wrong but isn't this what happened with two of the best known sets of Karate kata?

    I seem to recall that ITOSU was supposed to have used a little known form (CHANNON?) as a resource for developing his PINAN Kata, though the original material may now be lost. In like manner I have also heard that before the PINAN forms, NAIFANCHI was the most fundamental set to be learned (absent SANCHIN), and this kata was drawn from a Chinese form last known to have been practiced on Taiwan just before WW II. It would seem to me then that Okinawan form was a thoughtful evolution of MA with the loss of the precursor material on the mainland. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  7. #52
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    Just to add something to this debate, about how styles devolpe and change etc. Have a look at this-
    http://www.cyberbudo.com/budosai/2007_video.php

    click on Highligh part 4
    It's a very interesting demo of Sanchin Kata, firstly by two Fuken White crane masters(sorry I don't recall their names). Next Uechi Ryu, by Sensei Guchi , and lastly , Goju Ryu's by Sensei Higaonna.
    Andy.
    Last edited by andy.m; 21st July 2008 at 17:30. Reason: link error
    If you believe in an ideal,you don't own it,it owns you.
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  8. #53
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    Since leaving Okinawa some 46 years ago my “expertise” in karate has diminished a lot so maybe I should not speak about it. I studied Matsubayashi-ryu at Nagamine sensei’s dojo and a brief period of Goju-ryu with Miyazato sensei’s dojo. While traveling around the Rock my friends and I would drop in at other dojo and watch. A most impressive school taught Uechi-ryu and whilst a young, and less smart guy, concluded that it was roughest karate I had ever seen before then or there afterward.

    Just recently I came across some videos of Uechi-ryu and have become quite interested in it because of the great technique they exhibit and the obvious usefulness it would be to anyone who studied it. Of course, I am now too old and out of shape to actually practice it, the videos surely entertain me in my imagination (yes, being on the floor again)!!!

    Hopfully this is not to far OT.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by andy.m View Post
    Just to add something to this debate, about how styles devolpe and change etc. Have a look at this-
    http://www.cyberbudo.com/budosai/2007_video.php

    click on Highligh part 4
    It's a very interesting demo of Sanchin Kata, firstly by two Fuken White crane masters(sorry I don't recall their names). Next Uechi Ryu, by Sensei Guchi , and lastly , Goju Ryu's by Sensei Higaonna.
    Andy.
    Thanks for the clip, Andy. It was phenomenal!!

    Obviously Mssrs Pan and Chen (White Crane) had many similarities, including a flurry of very small but discrete movements at the ends of their respective forms.

    The UECHI-RYU master's execution was the closest to what I learned many, many years ago.

    Certainly Master HIRAGONNA Morio was the form that I have seen most commonly used. Good stuff!

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  10. #55
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    Default Another neat resource

    The is footage available of folks from the Wakayama dojo (under Tomoyosei [sp?] sensei) doing kata. There are marked differences between them and nearly everyone else in Uechiryu... some folks have hinted that that approach might be closer to what was being taught by the elder (Kanbum) Uechi sensei upon his return from China.

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

  11. #56
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    I have to ask this speaking, once again, as an outsider.

    I was aware of the matter of the additional kata with UECHI Kanai Sensei, but am I now hearing that there was a difference in execution between the two generations - son and father? Can anyone speak to this with authority? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  12. #57
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    BTW: since we are discussing SANCHIN I thought I would recommend the "Five Ancestor Fist Kung Fu" by Alexander L Co. It has a fascinating version of SANCHIN which seems closely related to the WHITE CRANE version. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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