The Book of Five Rings - What did you learn?

[Eugene]

I have not read the book yet, but for those who have read Musashi's The Book of Five Rings, I would like to get some feedback from you. In terms of facing and overcoming an opponent(s) in a sword duel, what would be the 3 most important thing that Musashi points out?

Thanks for your responses.

[socho]

you're asking strangers to put together a cheatsheet on Musashi?
I would suggest training first, then reading within the context of your training, then comparative philosophy. Good luck.

Dave

[Usagi]

When you get to read it, keep in mind that the technical part is about a koryu style that you're likely to see only on youtube. It doesn't necessarily relates to Kendo, Ninjutsu or Aikiken.

For some insights about it...
http://www.hyoho.com/hyoho7.html

[Ken-Hawaii]

Eugene, it doesn't all matter what I learned, it's what you will learn if you decide to read the treatise.

And what Musashi wrote about was not intended to advise on duels, but rather how to lead your life.

[Eugene]

Interesting responses. I thought people would be happy to share what they gained from the book. I also belong to a sport bike forum, and people who ride sport bikes are very willing to share insights about riding skills.

As you can tell from the number of posts I have made, I am not familiar with martial arts forums. I must say, it's a different world. In any case, thanks for taking the time to hammer down few words.

[Brian Owens]

Interesting responses. I thought people would be happy to share what they gained from the book. I also belong to a sport bike forum, and people who ride sport bikes are very willing to share insights about riding skills.

I am a member of BurgmanUSA.com, a forum devoted to riders of Suzuki's megascooters. I probably have made a few thousand posts there over the years.

I have considerably more posts here, and in my experience, the senior members here are happy to share their insights and experiences when it would be helpful to others to do so; but we're also going to be upfront when it's not going to be helpful to directly answer questions.

Gorin no Sho has seen a lot of popularity in the West in recent years, and has been translated both reasonably well (by William Scott Wilson, for example) and very badly. Its "lessons" have been applied to everything from martial arts to big business.

I have to say that what one gets from reading it (or any other book, for that matter) depends greatly on what one's life position is when opening it. Everything you read will be colored by the filters of your experience.

So, go ahead and read it (stay away from "The Karate Master's Book of Five Rings," "The Burger Flippers Book of Five Rings," "The Book of Five Rings: A Libertarian Choice," or anything similar; just get Wilson's straight forward translation), but be prepared for it not to be what you expected.

Then, in a few months or years, read it again, and be prepared to see it in a completely different light.

Above all, take to heart what our Senior Moderator, Hyaku, has said on his Hyoho.com site: "By all means it's wonderful to read Musashi. But at the same time don't take what he writes too literally in application to other Budo."

HTH.

[Eugene]

Thanks Brian for the reference. That will save me a lot of headache when I do get the book. The quote from Hyaku is interesting because I thought the main thrust of the book would be about facing an opponent. Well, I do need to read the book for myself, but if it isn't about dueling tactics, I would not be as motivated to read the book. My main interest in Musashi's book was to get into the mind of a person who has actually faced a live blade in a dueling situation. That state of mind is something I do not think any of us has much experience with. It was really a pychological curiosity on my part.

[DDATFUS]

if it isn't about dueling tactics, I would not be as motivated to read the book. My main interest in Musashi's book was to get into the mind of a person who has actually faced a live blade in a dueling situation. That state of mind is something I do not think any of us has much experience with. It was really a pychological curiosity on my part.

Musashi's book is on dueling tactics... and then again, it isn't. It's one of those cases where really all you can do is read it for yourself, and then train, and then train some more and see where it takes you.

If you want to read about the psychological state of mind required for combat, I suggest you read Dr. David Hall's article in the first volume of Diane Skoss's Koryu Bujutsu series. Dr. Hall is the former editor of the International Hoplology Society's journal and has done a good bit of academic research into the psychological stresses of combat and how the traditional swords arts of Japan conditioned their students to deal with these stresses. Some of the works that Dr. Hall cites in his article might be of interest to you; they include:

Davis, S.W. 1956. "Stress in Combat." Scientific American 194, no. 3.

Eibl-Eibesfeldt, I. 1979. The Biology of Peace and War. New York: Viking Press.

Hamilton, L. 1989. "Fight, Flight, or Freeze: Implications of the Passive Fear Response for Anxiety and Depression." Phobia Practice and Research Journal 2, no. 1:17-27.

I haven't read these, but if you have access to a database that contains some of these articles, you might find them interesting.

I would also recommend visiting the website of the International Hoplological Society and looking at some of their recommended books. There are a few that discuss this issue.

[Dean Whittle]

Eugene,

You may also consider looking into Dave Grossman's book 'On Combat', an excellent insight into the mindset required for a 'lethal force encounter'.

With respect

[Rennis]

Eugene,

You may also consider looking into Dave Grossman's book 'On Combat', an excellent insight into the mindset required for a 'lethal force encounter'.

With respect

I haven't read "On Combat" which appears to be fairly new, but I have read Grossman's "On Killing" and many people consider some of the fundamental elements of Grossman's argument that humans are not naturally "wired" to kill each other flawed, although many of the parts about training and psychological conditioning, etc seemed fairly on target. "On Killing" was written about 12 years ago, so possibly some elements of his argument have changed or been refined since then. Again, not a comment on "On Combat" directly since I haven't read it, just pointing out that many people didn't agree with Grossman's ideas put forth in his previous book.

For what it's worth,
Rennis Buchner

[Dean Whittle]

Rennis,

Thanks for that, it's interesting because I've yet to see any criticism of it ... maybe I'm not reading broadly enough

His theory about humans killing humans is complex and includes the concept of 'killing enabling factors' such as victim running away, orders from authority and peer support making it easier to kill another human.

On Combat is much more about developing his 'bullet-proof mind', ie a mindset for combat but he does reference a few things from On Killing.

Anyway both books are both worthwhile reads.

With respect

[Rennis]

It's been years since I read the book, but as I recall the general gist was that Grossman feels that it is not in humans' natural make up to kill each other and thus various sorts of conditioning must be done to overcome this psychological hurdle (with certain types of killing more difficult than others depending on range, method, etc).

The opposing argument that I have heard from various circles is that rather than humans not being wired to kill each other, we have a few natural psychological "states", one of which is a natural predatory "mindset" (for lack of a different word) in which killing poses little problem. They argue that the conditioning involved is not to overcome a nature aversion to killing each other, but rather the conditioning is needed to enter this naturally preexisting mindset (the "hunter" or "combative" mindset if you will) that otherwise seldom if ever gets tapped into among most people in modern society.

Basically the criticism tends to focus more on his basic premise of human nature, and less on any ideas he has about combative conditioning.

[gendzwil]

Well, I do need to read the book for myself, but if it isn't about dueling tactics, I would not be as motivated to read the book.

The portions of the book that are technical use language that would only be meaningful to someone who has practiced that particular school of swordsmanship. Mostly I find the books' content to be misinterpreted and misunderstood by a large number of young "samurai" wannabes who have never set foot in a dojo but like to argue about it from a misperceived position of authority on the internet.

[Eugene]

DDATFUS:

Thanks for the info on Dr. Hall's work. My main interest being sword combat, I would be most interested in reading his work on traditional Japanese conditioning for sword arts. As I said, it's really a curiosity on my part. I assure you, I have no desire or intention of ever wanting to face a live blade, but as a sword MA practitioner, I think it would be an added bonus to understand the psychology that's involved. I think having a live blade before you is somewhat different than getting shot at from a distance. Thanks again.

[Brian Owens]

...as a sword MA practitioner...

Although this site is primarily devoted to Japanese martial arts, we do have members who are practitioners of European and Korean sword arts as well.

I think they would agree with me when I say that you need to find yourself a dojang with a qualified sabum who can teach you the basics in person. Reading books and watching videos can never substitute for personal tutelage; their usefulness comes after you have passed the first level.