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Thread: The secret of ki, life, and asian martial arts.

  1. #46
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    Ya know, if someone can actually do the sorts of thing that some people claim to be able to do, and can do them in controlled, repeatable, measurable fashion, there's probably a Nobel in their future.

    However, so far, we got no proof. No repeatable, measurable, quantifiable results. Just hearsay and bragging and posturing and sometimes something interesting happens that cannot be repeated under controlled circumstances.

    Ki/Chi/Qi is shorthand for good ergonomics, good body mechanics, tight focus and intelligent application of force. Not much more.

    Legend and myth are fun, but they don't hold up to scientific scrutiny.

    It's easy to believe in the esoteric, but taking a realistic, scientific stance and measuring, evaluating, researching and defining what is being done is the trick.

    If it don't stand up to scientific scrutiny, it's probably prestidigitation.

    Don't get wrapped up in the woo. Train, enjoy, pass it on. Don't delude yourself or anyone else.

    cg
    (A skeptic who is open to proof and evidence, but ain't holding his breath and who has studied budo for about 35 years and has yet to see any real evidence of anything resembling supernatural forces) ...
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck.Gordon View Post
    Ki/Chi/Qi is shorthand for good ergonomics, good body mechanics, tight focus and intelligent application of force. Not much more.

    Legend and myth are fun, but they don't hold up to scientific scrutiny.

    It's easy to believe in the esoteric, but taking a realistic, scientific stance and measuring, evaluating, researching and defining what is being done is the trick.

    If it don't stand up to scientific scrutiny, it's probably prestidigitation.
    Chuck,
    You might find this interesting:
    http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/...20Stanford.pdf
    Ricky Wood

  3. #48
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    Magic and slight of hand requires more skill than what’s demonstrated in the video. All he has is an agreement between the human beings to react by jumping around once he initiates movement there is no skill required for that demonstration in my opinion. The need to belong and be accepted by others to receive validation for their perceived skills is what drives them to agree to participate.

    Maybe Einstien could develope a theroy to explain it but I dont see it with my limited intelect sorry.

    I am no Taichi expert but I will go out on a limb and say that what Chen does in the Stanford testing is not what the guy in the video posted originally on this thread is doing.

    I know a student of the Chen lineage their practice is very explosive with power originating from the core of the body. They use prolonged practice in deep stances with very clean lines of power and proper body mechanics to produce the ability to generate this explosive power.

    It doesn’t look anything like what most people in vision as tai chi chuan.

    I will also go out on a limb and say I believe Chen could knock down ten guys like dominos but it would not occur as was pictured in the video in this thread.

    I would practice Chen style Tai chi chuan.
    Last edited by Chris McLean; 30th September 2008 at 14:34.
    Chris McLean
    Martial Arts student

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris McLean View Post
    Magic and slight of hand requires more skill than what’s demonstrated in the video. All he has is an agreement between the human beings to react by jumping around once he initiates movement there is no skill required for that demonstration in my opinion. The need to belong and be accepted by others to receive validation for their perceived skills is what drives them to agree to participate.

    Maybe Einstien could develope a theroy to explain it but I don't see it with my limited intelect sorry.

    I am no Taichi expert but I will go out on a limb and say that what Chen does in the Stanford testing is not what the guy in the video posted originally on this thread is doing.

    I know a student of the Chen lineage their practice is very explosive with power originating from the core of the body. They use prolonged practice in deep stances with very clean lines of power and proper body mechanics to produce the ability to generate this explosive power.

    It doesn’t look anything like what most people in vision as tai chi chuan.

    I will also go out on a limb and say I believe Chen could knock down ten guys like dominos but it would not occur as was pictured in the video in this thread.

    I would practice Chen style Tai chi chuan.
    i don't believe in the non touch power stuff as i had not seen it,but your right about taiji.
    they do have very clear lines of power to the ground. i met one about 6 years ago. i needed a training partner to train jujitsu and he was around so we started training together. since then i have trained in taiji and it just made all my skills better. i'm all for it. is quite remarkable!
    cheers

  5. #50
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    Default as I have said...

    I don't believe what the bubble guy is doing, but there is a few possible scientific explanations, I put one forward, but there are others if you look for them. No one can argue that acupuncture is effective, there obviously must be something to the dan tien, folks, scientific. Just because you can't normally see bacteria with you own two eyes doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. To be frank we actually haven't really been able to xplore alot of things, 80% of most things we do haven't been scientifically proven, arguably (and no I'm not in the mood to argue, just use your head). Our eyes can only see two dimensions, yet there are supposedly eleven. I think that there's alot that we don't see and we don't use our own senses enough. I have personally felt chi, and seen it's effects when hitting someone, I have not been able to control my chi effectively, but I could feel a difference and noticed that my impact with chi was more effective and the damage went deeper. I think that if anybody knows anything about science, they should keep an open mind, although not too open. I don't expect anybody to develop a way to make moneys fly, but with genetic technology today, it might actually happen. Every four years we double our technology.
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    acupuncture has still not been proven to be any more effective than randomly sticking needles in someone.
    Dean Eichler der Zweite
    Bujinkan Keiko Dojo
    Owner www.korisuya.com Ninjutsu tools

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baio View Post
    acupuncture has still not been proven to be any more effective than randomly sticking needles in someone.
    That is actually not correct anymore. A search in Cochrane database reveals multiple results, some of which reveal that acupuncture is in fact beneficial treatment in some cases. Of course there still remains some controversy over the importance of placing the needles, but in fact even MDs use needles to effect trigger points when applicable.

    Now, this doesn't mean there's anything to the whole ki/chi/meridians system - just that acupuncture as a treatment is not all placebo and so useless as some overly scientifically minded people in the West used to think. Also every sane acupuncturist recognizes the uses and limits of the needles and will not try to cure diseases like cancer.

    The area where acupuncture is most beneficial is pain control and musculoskeletal problems.

    http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004870.html
    http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001351.html
    http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003281.html
    http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab004870.html
    Mika Rantanen

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    Quote Originally Posted by falkoni View Post
    ...The area where acupuncture is most beneficial is pain control and musculoskeletal problems.
    Yep.

    It has also been shown to be beneficial in quitting smoking (used on a point in the ears lobes, if memory serves me correctly).
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    Yep.

    It has also been shown to be beneficial in quitting smoking (used on a point in the ears lobes, if memory serves me correctly).
    "Quit smoking, or I'll stab you in the earlobe with a needle."

    I guess I can see how that might be somewhat motivational.
    Carl Hamlin
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    'The etiquette that underlies all martial arts is based on the assumption that the person with whom you are dealing is standing before you wearing three feet of razor sharp steel.' - George Ledyard

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    It has also been shown to be beneficial in quitting smoking (used on a point in the ears lobes, if memory serves me correctly).
    Actually another Cochrane review says that at the moment there is no consistent evidence to support the claim that acupuncture helps more people quit smoking. Although I think Carl's idea might be worth researching.

    http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab000009.html

    For those of you who don't know, the Cochrane Collaboration is one of the most reliable and respected providers of systematic reviews in the medical field and systematic reviews are the thing that modern medicine uses to validate treatments' effectiviness. In other words: if a systematic review finds so it probably is so, and vice versa if you think something opposite to a systematic review's findings you better have pretty good and extensive proof of it.

    And then again, (almost) anything you think helps you stop smoking or get better is good for you and probably helps.
    Mika Rantanen

  11. #56
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    Default interestingly enough...

    There is also a great deal of research that has been done in acupressure, which was used along with western science, including psychology (although it is not placebo oriented but brain science oriented), in order to create EFT [emotional freedom technique, it was originally only for emotional stress but then was found to take on much more]. It was found that they could cure people from stress and psychological disorders through touching certain meridians during meditation. They also found that it could benefit those with physical conditions. I was skeptical about this at first, however, I hurt my bone in my knee real bad on a staircase and found that after my friend walked me through it, it went away in just ten minutes, completely, with no backlash. It had been hurting for three weeks. Supposedly it has also cured diabetes, bipolar, gotten people out of wheelchairs and off crutches. Once again, I had problems believing until I actually saw a few cases, and in fact it is quite amazing stuff. It actually is clinically proven to change your blood movements in just five minutes, an emotional reck to a normal and happy person's blood (yes, there is a difference, the recks blood clumps while the normal person's blood flows relatively rapidly). There's nobody in the world who can argue that people with multiple sclerosis, diabetes, and badly spraned bones are cured in mere minutes based on pure placebo, there must be some other reason. I'm not trying to say that it has all the answers in the world, but it is amazing, clinically proven, and involved with acupressure.
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    Brendan, who is this they who have done the research and found these things? Can you give us the names of the clinics where these studies were carried out and the people who did them? Any links to articles in peer reviewed publications or institutions are also most welcome. You know, personal anecdotes or stories heard in the internet (what this is for me right now, I read someone telling these things but I have no other viable proof for it) are not considered proof.

    Anything that is "clinically proven" should not be difficult to come up with searches to pubMed or such databases.
    Mika Rantanen

  13. #58
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    Also I'm sure that the medical community would be most interested in a fast cure - or a cure in itself - for MS or diabetes.

    I don't want to appear overly negative or sceptical, but as they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
    Mika Rantanen

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    I don't understand what you mean by blood clumps. There are 2 ways I know of in which blood "clumps."

    One is metastatic cancerous cells clumping red blood cells around them while they travel through the blood stream. These aren't large clumps, they're indetectable save through microscopy or flow cytometric techniques.

    The other is blood clots, and if a person who's an emotional wreck has blood clots, he's also going to have heart attacks or strokes. Blood clots loose in the blood are deadly.

    You may be talking about speeding up blood flow, in which case it may be causing the heart to speed up...

    Also, take a look at this article. It's very likely that a number of these phenomena are variants of ideomotor phenomena.
    Trevor Johnson

    Low kicks and low puns a specialty.

  15. #60
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    Wow.

    Quantum Physics:

    Sounds a bit like the pseudo-science of "What the Bleep Do We Know" ...

    Do you actually study QP, as in doing the maths, or are you reading pop-sci books about it?

    Acupuncture:

    Arguably, there is valid science behind the idea of interrupting a pain response by using a needle, and this has been used effectively (and researchefairly thoroughly), but the effect is physical and not metaphysical. It involves invoking a histamine response, among other things, IIRC.

    As for quitting smoking (or curing internet porn addiction), the act of doing something about the problem, coupled with a physical response to the prick of the needle could form a fairly effective mnemonic to assist the sufferer in handling cravings, but there's no evidence I've seen that relates any metaphysical properties tothe practice.

    A couple of good resources for info about such things are:

    http://www.quackwatch.org/index.html

    http://skepdic.com/

    http://www.randi.org/site/
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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