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Thread: Wearing an IOTV/IBA and doing combatives?

  1. #1
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    Default Wearing an IOTV/IBA and doing combatives?

    Dear all,

    Are IOTVs/IBAs ever worn for higher levels of combative training?
    Jody Holeton
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    OPEN 24 hours, 7 days a week,
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    Default Iba

    Yes, many units and groups will train with body armor. What exactly do you mean "higher level"?
    Last edited by leavittk; 10th July 2008 at 00:22. Reason: add to the post.

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    ALot of traditional Japanese arts deal with armor fighting.

    I was wondering if the Army has formally introduced any training.

    Running and training in an IBA is a bit different than in normal civies, PTs or ACUs.

    Seems to me there is some transfer from the old Japanese koryu and todays modern combatives.
    Jody Holeton
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    Default IBA in Combatives

    I am sure that much of what you learn in a Koryu system that deals with armor could be transferred to modern times. While not a koryu, I study aikido which is a deriviative of koryu. I find much of that is applicable in many ways.

    You will probably get may opinions on this, and mine is not definitive so keep this in mind.

    Body armor does affect the conditions and should be factored into the situation as an environmental consideration. We don't "formally" focus on it as it in MACP though in anyway.

    Why? Again, just my perspective or opinion, It offers no distinctive tactical advantage. That is, you fight and use the exact same tactics with or without it. While you are definitely affected by IBA, Kevlars, and other kit....it does not change the fight strategy in any way. Therefore, we don't focus on it as a tactical or strategic consideration.

    That said, you do need to practice with it on, and you do need to work on weapons retention and employment to develop good habits and and gain the feel of it. It affects your ability to move, weight distribution. You also need to practice using your various weapons and backup weapons as well.

    Statistics and case studies have shown that if you do not do this, then most of the time you will not deploy your weapons, especially your backup weapons in a fight. It is about good habits and muscle memory.

    Yes, body armor does offer other hand holds, straps, and it does restrict your ability to roll, move etc. All environmental considerations.

    Again though, there are no distinct changes that occur to what MACP teaches with or without it, so there is no "formal" consideration necessary.

    Hope this helps.

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    Default

    Heya Jody and Kevin!

    I seem to remember at least some of the folks at Graf (the NCO Academy maybe?) doing MACP practice in IBA ...

    Agree w/Kevin, that there could potentially be some good crossover between some of the koryu grappling and MACP.

    Also, what Kev said about the _strategy_ not changing is valid and crucial. While ranging, timing, grips, etc MIGHT change, the core, the fundamentals, of the strategic application will not.

    cg
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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    Default

    Yes, I am sure it was the NCO Academy at Graf doing it.

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    Work it not only with IBA but also with a weapon; weapon retention skills are important. You don't want to take the bad guy down only to have him shoot you with your own weapon.

    Jeff Cook

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    Default Iba

    Jeff, Yes indeed!

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    Default IBA knowlege

    Knowing where the openings are in body armor, that expose vital points (arteries etc. inside the thigh, under the armpit, the groin) are very helpful. It would seem to me that unless you are an MP and dealing with friendlies, if you have a weapon, you would most likely employ it prior to a H2H engagement. If not, weapon retention is huge and taking advantage of openings is even bigger. Body armor considered, point blank with your back up, assuming 9mm, isn't going to help much unless you get around or under the armor.

    Am I behind the times?
    Are we using something other than a 9mm Nato as a handgun round?

    Yagyu Shingan ryu would be a definite benefit here!
    Last edited by wagnerphysed; 17th July 2008 at 00:34. Reason: Addition
    Your's in health,
    Brian Wagner
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    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

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    Default

    Brian, MACP comes into play when you either are not allowed to use your weapon (humanitarian missions, tactical law enforcement missions) or if you lose your weapon during close combat. Most of the bad guys we are likely to deal with these days do not wear body armor, but even if they did I am certain the training methodologies of MACP are sufficient to not make that a factor. It is a grappling and a striking system. A US Soldier will know instantly if the bad guy is wearing body armor, and will not waste his or her time striking the body armor. Besides that, a good striker CAN have impact on target if striking the correct part of the armor. All in all though I really don't think armor would be an issue.

    Yes, we still carry the M9 Beretta 9mm.

    Jeff Cook

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Cook View Post

    Yes, we still carry the M9 Beretta 9mm.

    Jeff Cook
    Eeww... Yuck!
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Default

    and some of us Sigs and others.
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    Regards,

    Lee R

    http://www.bujinkanseitakudojo.com/

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    Jody,

    What the hell are you doing in Baghdad (And where are you? I was at FOB Shield until this last January...)?
    Matt Stone
    VIRTUS et HONOS
    "Strength and Honor"

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Kohler View Post
    Eeww... Yuck!
    George, if I had my druthers I would be carrying a Springfield Arms XD-9. I bought one not too long ago, and am quite fond of it. It kicks butt over the M9.

    Jeff Cook

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    Default Armoured combat

    Quote Originally Posted by Jody Holeton View Post
    ALot of traditional Japanese arts deal with armor fighting.

    I was wondering if the Army has formally introduced any training.

    Running and training in an IBA is a bit different than in normal civies, PTs or ACUs.

    Seems to me there is some transfer from the old Japanese koryu and todays modern combatives.
    Hi Jody,

    Yagyu Shingan Ryu Heihojutsu still retains it's original armoured techniques. My teacher is a police officer as well as a weapons & tactics Instructor. He has had alot of experience in the use of body armour and tactics. Armoured combat is quite different to unarmoured and the use of small weapons in armoured hand to hand combat is paramount when attacking the weakness in the armour.

    Regards,
    Simon
    Simon Louis
    www.shinganryu.org

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