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Thread: Hope this doesn't hit any social Kyusho's.

  1. #16
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    In both cases, an image of wealth, strength, power, and success is projected in order to appeal to groups of people for whom these things are either lacking or absent. The image is -through marketing- made dependant on the consumer goods endorsed by the athlete or artist rather than his or her skill. Also in both cases the physical image created is as derivative and crude as possible so as to make it obviously accessible to the broadest consumer base. Rap and MMA don't seem to share a common cultural background as far as I can tell, but they have both been processed through the same marketing machine for the same purpose; making them appealing to males between the ages of 16 and 26 (give or take). It's a sad statement about the lack of imagination that grips our culture that two things that are culturally and historically unrelated can be so badly mutilated as to make them nearly indistinguishable from one another. It's sadder still that it's done for the express purpose of deluding our once brave and adventurous young men into believing that t-shirts, tattoos and attitude are interchangeable with moral fortitude and personal achievement.
    Iain Richardson, compulsive post-having cake eater-wanter.

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bu-kusa View Post
    Link to article please!
    Yes please.
    Ricky Wood

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    In both cases, an image of wealth, strength, power, and success is projected in order to appeal to groups of people for whom these things are either lacking or absent. The image is -through marketing- made dependant on the consumer goods endorsed by the athlete or artist rather than his or her skill. Also in both cases the physical image created is as derivative and crude as possible so as to make it obviously accessible to the broadest consumer base. Rap and MMA don't seem to share a common cultural background as far as I can tell, but they have both been processed through the same marketing machine for the same purpose; making them appealing to males between the ages of 16 and 26 (give or take). It's a sad statement about the lack of imagination that grips our culture that two things that are culturally and historically unrelated can be so badly mutilated as to make them nearly indistinguishable from one another. It's sadder still that it's done for the express purpose of deluding our once brave and adventurous young men into believing that t-shirts, tattoos and attitude are interchangeable with moral fortitude and personal achievement.
    A good analysis.
    The people it is easiest selling a status symbol to is those who have little status. And those who buy into it lose resources, time and money, they could use to attain real status. MMA is about selling spectator tickets and advertising space. It is not about martial artists practicing a martial art, but about people paying for vicarious experience. The problem with gangsta rap (for example) is exactly the opposite. Those who genuinely buy into it as anything other than entertainment are utter losers.

    Dirk

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    A good analysis.
    The people it is easiest selling a status symbol to is those who have little status. And those who buy into it lose resources, time and money, they could use to attain real status. MMA is about selling spectator tickets and advertising space. It is not about martial artists practicing a martial art, but about people paying for vicarious experience. The problem with gangsta rap (for example) is exactly the opposite. Those who genuinely buy into it as anything other than entertainment are utter losers.

    Dirk
    If people were willing to pay to watch Shorinji Kempo, would it then cease to be a 'martial art?'
    Ricky Wood

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    If people were willing to pay to watch Shorinji Kempo, would it then cease to be a 'martial art?'
    That's a pretty big 'if'. And thats the point, no one is really interested in watching it, so to make it watchable, you would have to change it.
    Jim Boone

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    If people were willing to pay to watch Shorinji Kempo, would it then cease to be a 'martial art?'
    Not necessarily, since people actually do pay to get into our Taikai and watch. But as soon as it started to be a Big Money sport, it would cease to be SK. Is MMA a martial art or a spectator sport?

    Dirk

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    Not necessarily, since people actually do pay to get into our Taikai and watch. But as soon as it started to be a Big Money sport, it would cease to be SK. Is MMA a martial art or a spectator sport?

    Dirk
    Can it be both?
    Is boxing a martial art?
    Ricky Wood

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    Quote Originally Posted by yoj View Post
    That's a pretty big 'if'. And thats the point, no one is really interested in watching it, so to make it watchable, you would have to change it.
    Actually, what we call 'embu', is very watchable.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pleuv7G4go

    I can quite imagine this turning into a pseudo-gymnastic spectator sport. In which case to earn the $million prizes the rest of SK would be sacrificed to looking good.

    Now, I don't know very much about the origins of MMA. So, was it designed to be spectator oriented at the beginning or has it evolved that way? Have rules been added to make it 'spectator friendly' etc?

    Dirk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    Can it be both?
    Is boxing a martial art?
    I would say that boxing is a sport, not a martial art. That's not to say a boxer could not more than hold his own against almost all other unarmed MAs.
    What makes it a sport is the rules (ie it actually has rules), and the equipment designed to extend fights to tens of minutes. It has evolved to maximise the number of spectators.

    Dirk

  10. #25
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    Dirk, I'm aware of embu, and I agree it is watchable, but i'm a bit different, I meant as a part of normal TV for 'normal' folks
    Last edited by yoj; 23rd August 2008 at 17:29. Reason: spelling error
    Jim Boone

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoj View Post
    Dirk, I'm aware of embu, and I agree it is watchable, but i'm a bit different, I meant as a part of normal TV for 'normal' folks
    Well, gymnastics certainly appears on TV as entertainment.
    But you are correct. People would not watch SK any more than they would pay to watch boxers training. So why does MMA appear on TV? My guess is that it is starting to take over from boxing for two reasons. The first is that boxing has a bad image from the organisational point of view ie it is viewed as dirty and 'fixed' a lot of the time in that Big Money has corrupted it. The second is that the public prefers 'real' fighting over the extended bouts of boxing. I imagine that if full Roman style gladiatorial sports, with fighting to the death some of the time, were introduced it would wipe the floor with everything TV-wise.

    Dirk

  12. #27
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    Before we go too far here I think we need to agree on a definition of 'martial art' or we will just be talking past one another. I'll throw this one from wikipedia out there first:

    "Martial arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. While they may be studied for various reasons, martial arts share a single objective: to defeat one or more people physically and to defend oneself or others from physical threat. In addition, some martial arts are linked to spiritual or religious beliefs/philosophies such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism or Shinto, Confucianism while others have their own spiritual or non-spiritual code of honour. Many arts are also practised competitively most commonly as combat sports, but may also be in the form of dance.

    In popular culture, the term "Martial Arts" often specifically refers to the combat systems that originated in Asian cultures. However, the term actually refers to any sort of codified combat systems, regardless of origin. Europe is home to many extensive systems of martial arts, both living traditions (e.g. Jogo do Pau and other stick and sword fencing and Savate, a French kicking style developed by sailors and street fighters) and older systems collectively referred to as Historical European martial arts that existed until modern times and are now being reconstructed by several organizations. In the Americas, Native Americans have a tradition of open-handed martial arts, which includes wrestling, and Hawaiians have historically practiced arts featuring small and large joint manipulation. A mix of origins occur in the athletic movements of Capoeira, a practice that was created in Brazil by slaves and was based on skills brought with them from Africa.

    While each style has unique facets that make it different from other martial arts, a common characteristic is the systemization of fighting techniques. Methods of training vary and may include sparring or forms (kata), which are sets or routines of techniques that are performed alone, or sometimes with a partner, and which are especially common in the Asian and Asian-derived martial arts.[1]

    The word 'martial' derives from the name of Mars, the Roman god of war. The term 'Martial Arts' literally means arts of war. This term comes from 15th century Europeans who were referring to their own fighting arts that are today known as Historical European martial arts. A practitioner of martial arts is referred to as a martial artist."
    Ricky Wood

  13. #28
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    I imagine that if full Roman style gladiatorial sports, with fighting to the death some of the time, were introduced it would wipe the floor with everything TV-wise.

    Dirk
    I swear, I wouldn't be surprised if one day people are all watching such a thing....
    Zachariah Zinn

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody View Post
    If people were willing to pay to watch Shorinji Kempo, would it then cease to be a 'martial art?'
    That depends on the standards applied to it's hypothetical conversion into a spectator event. By our common cultural standards, the answer is no because the goal is not to provide a vision of the art, but to use the art (broadly held misconceptions and all) as a vessel for delivering a product to an audience. In such a case, what is valuable to the art is secondary to what is commerically valuable. This is evident in MMA through things like persistent and largely fruitless striking on the ground. All that punching from the guard and other non-dominant positions accomplishes little in terms of achieving the goal of submission. You can punch someone a hundred times in the head, unless there's weight, accuracy, and leverage, it won't get you a knock-out. It does however cause copious cutting and after a round or so makes one or both fighters look like hamburger. There's blood, there's mess, and theres a lot of seemingly aggressive behaviour. There'd be more to watch submissions wise if they limited striking to dominant positions (Mount, certain side guards), but there'd be less blood. Something that would improve the overall skill level of the sport is put aside for the sake of entertaining the crowd. They also love to play up the bad-ass street fighter angle, and often leave out the years of strenuous and demanding training that many fighters undergo. Everyone has had a drunken cuddle-fight at the bar, so it's that much easier for people to identify with.

    In short, nothing of substance is likely to make it's way from the martial world to the media untouched, and that touch routinely turns things into crap because people are idiots and crap sells.
    Iain Richardson, compulsive post-having cake eater-wanter.

    "He shoots first who laughs last."
    - Alexsandr Lebed,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    In short, nothing of substance is likely to make it's way from the martial world to the media untouched, and that touch routinely turns things into crap because people are idiots and crap sells.
    In which case I expect the new Olympic style Taekwondo, with referee kicking, to make it Big Time :-) I would certainly watch more of that!

    Seriously though, I think that TKD has been seriously harmed as a MA by its inclusion in the Olympics.

    Dirk

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