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Thread: Oldest Okinawan Seisan ?

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    Default Oldest Okinawan Seisan ?

    What is the oldest version of Seisan on Okinawa? I understand it came from China to Okinawa but when did the first version on Okinawa happen and who was it taught by and to whom?

    Tom Hodges

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    Don't know about oldest, but Matsumura practiced a form of Seisan.
    That puts it somewhere in the mid 1800's.
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    Yes I had read a story a long time ago the Matsumura had been taught a version by his Chinese wife. I do not know how true that story is though and I cannot remember where I read it.

    Tom Hodges

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    When dealing with kata names that are shared across styles, it's important to understand where these kata names come from. There are many many kata called seisan and they are not all related (although some of them are). Literally, seisan means thirteen. Thirteen is a very significant number in Chinese religious philosophy along with three and one-hundred eight. That's why there are so many very different kata called seisan and superempei. They aren't always the same kata! They are often not even related. The forms share a name because the name has religious significance in China.

    I don't know why you're asking this question and thus I don't know if this information is at all helpful. But if you're looking for an older version of the kata you study, be aware that just because the two kata share a name they might not share a common origin.
    Regards,

    Jeffrey Luz-Alterman

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    Hi all,

    drosera99, all the seisan kata I have seen look the same with only minor variances across the traditions. Goju-ryu, Shorin-ryu, Shito-ryu, Chito-ryu, Wado-ryu and even Shotokan (Hangetsu) etc have very similar Seisan kata. What karate ryu/kai/kan/juku have a Sesan that is totally different and unrelated to the schools above?

    Cheers,

    Paul
    Paul Steadman

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    Default Seishan

    I would suggest around 1828.

    Since Seishan is common to most, if not all Okinawan styles, there are two explanations for this:

    1) More than one Okinawan studied Seishan under Chinese instruction

    2) One Okinawan studied Seishan under Chinese instruction

    In the case of the second possibility, for Seishan to have been introduced to Okinawa by just one person, there would need to be a link between that person and all the other styles that practice it. For instance Seishan could not have been introduced to Okinawa by Funakoshi as that would not explain how the form came to be in Naha Te as well as Shorin Ryu.

    Therefore IMHO the leading candidate for introducing Seishan to Okinawa is Soken Matsumura simply because he knew, and was senior to, the leading exponents of Shuri Te, Naha Te and Tomari Te of the time therefore was well placed as a source for each style to have access to the form.

    For example, if Matsumura learnt the form in China (from, say Iwah or Waishinxian) he could have taught it to:

    a) his Shorin Ryu students such as Itosu thereby establishing a Shuri version of Seishan (which later evolved into Hangetsu)

    b) his aquaintances in Tomari such as Kosaku Matsumora and Oyodamari, thereby establishing a Tomari Te version of the form

    c) his aquaintance Seisho Aragaki who probably would have taught the form to his student Higaonna Kanryo thereby establishing a Naha Te version of the kata.

    This is just one possibility of course, there's nothing to say the form could not have been "brought back" by multiple Okinawans, but I think it likely it came from somebody like Matsumura.

    If I might suggest a hypothetical timeline from my own research:

    1798: Sokon Matsumura is born
    1810: Sokon Matsumura studies under Sakugawa
    1815: Matsumura begins working at Shuri Castle
    1818: Matsumura marries Yonamine
    1828: Sokon Matsumura travels to China and studies Seishan under the Chinese master Iwah. He returns to Okinawa.
    1829: Kosaku Matsumora is born in Tomari
    1832: Yasutsune Itosu is born
    1834: Matsumura trains in Satsuma
    1840: Seisho Aragaki is born
    1840: Ason comes to Okinawa and teaches Naihanchi to Matsumura
    1848: Kojo Sho Sei and Kojo Isei travel to Fuchou to study under Iwah. In addition to forms he teaches them the “hand spear” and archery
    1853: Aragaki begins training in Shuri under Kitoku Sakayama. Higaonna Kanryo is born
    1854: Annan (also known as Chinto) arrives in Tomari. He teaches Kosaku Matsumora.
    1867: Aragaki begins teaching Higaonna in Naha.

    I hope that helps in some way.
    Best wishes on your quest
    Simon
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Thank you very much that is more help than I had anticipated.

    Tom Hodges

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    Seisan is a Shorei Kata, even when practised in a Shorin or Shorin based style. Though it is likely to have been around before the Shorei/Shorin classification came into being.

    Anyway have a look at this Uechi Ryu Seisan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zXmNYXxRO0
    and this Kenshin Kan version http://www.sensei.cl/karate/aprender...ta.php?kata=22
    Though the general pattern (in terms of direction and key movements) is similar to other versions, there are some interesting parts to these. These versions have no connection, as far as I am aware to Matsumura Sokon.

    Regards
    Chris Norman

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    I do not understand the Shorei/Shorin classification in this context since it would be of Chinese origin at the introduction to Okinawa. Matsumura would surely be a Shorin classification I would think. But from what I have been told the Uechi and Shorei (Higashionna) introduction would have been after the introduction to and or by Matsumura. Do I understand that correctly?


    Although the Uechi and Shorei versions were reintroduced directly from Chinese sources and not reinvented from the pre-existing Shorin version. Would that be an acurate understanding?

    Tom Hodges

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    Default Shorin and Shorei

    Shorin and Shorei definitions are an absolute minefield - not only could the masters not agree with each other - they could not even agree with themselves! Funakoshi gave no less than three different versions of which of his forms constituted Shorin and which constituted Shorei.

    The Shotokan account is usually that fast, light, nimble kata like Empi (Wansu) belong to Shorin and that slow, powerful, rooted kata like Hangetsu (Seishan) belong to the Shorei group. It is possibly to define all 27 (ish) Shotokan kata according to Funakoshi's definitions.

    Other theories for Shorin and Shorei include:

    - Shorin is Shuri, Shorei is Naha
    - Shorin comes from Shaolin, Shorei comes from Wutang
    - Shorin comes from Northern China, Shorei from Southern China
    - Shorin suits powerful physique, Shorei suits more internal power
    - Shorei suits powerful physique, Shorin suits faster, more agile fighters
    - Shorin and Shorei are the same thing, both badly translated dialect forms of Shaolin
    - Shorei is Shaolin, Shorin refers to "Sho" as in King Sho Tai
    - Shorei is Shaolin, Shorin refers to "Sho" as in "Matsu[mura]"
    - Shorin was one Shaolin temple, Shorei was another
    - Shorin Ryu is the formal school of Matsumura, Shorei Ryu is synonymous with Higaonna's Naha Te
    - One theory is that Funakoshi used the classification to suggest his overall mastery of Karate. For example he might have stated that while somebody like Miyagi practised only Shorei Ryu, he had brought the two schools of Shorin and Shorei together for the first time in one organised system. This is the kind of organised, universal approach to an art that somebody like Jigoro Kano would have enjoyed, since he brought together arts like Kito Ryu and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu to influence his formation of Judo into one organised system.

    And that's probably just the tip of the classification iceberg!

    I'm not saying any or all of those theories are correct, just that they circulate.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    There are several Okinawan interpretations of the name of the kata Seisan:thirteen hands,thirteen battles,thirteen kamae and thirty three to begin with. Does anyone know what some of the Chinese interpretations would be?

    Tom Hodges

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    Hello Tom,

    The name "Seisan" is the Okinawan pronunciation of the two kanji for the number 13, or jusan in Japanese. When written with kanji it is usually suffixed with the kanji for "te" but this is not pronounced. So "seisan" means 13 hands. No reference to 13 or 33 battles, kamaes or whatever in Okinawan or Japanese that I'm aware of. Hope that helps.

    Cheers,
    Paul Steadman

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    The other thing to consider is that the distances between naha, shuri and tomari were not that great. There would have been alot of contact between early karate masters.

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    Default 13 moons

    One theory is the reason why Gichin Funakoshi renamed Seishan "Hangetsu" (half moon) is that there are 13 moons per year.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsujinken View Post
    Seisan is a Shorei Kata, even when practised in a Shorin or Shorin based style. Though it is likely to have been around before the Shorei/Shorin classification came into being.

    Anyway have a look at this Uechi Ryu Seisan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zXmNYXxRO0
    and this Kenshin Kan version http://www.sensei.cl/karate/aprender...ta.php?kata=22
    Though the general pattern (in terms of direction and key movements) is similar to other versions, there are some interesting parts to these. These versions have no connection, as far as I am aware to Matsumura Sokon.

    Regards
    Wow, this reminds me of my Seisan thread from a couple years ago...

    I'll post the version of Seisan that my school does:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZfSts31QrA
    http://s24.photobucket.com/albums/c4...ent=Seisan.flv
    Pat Massey

    Student of Shorin Ryu
    Student of Aikikai Aikido

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