What's the deal with "family styles"?

[Patrick McCarthy]

I guess this is one thing that is unclear to me. If someone taught karate to one or several private students (apart from members of his own family), does it fit the definition of a family style? If it is available to select members of the public...
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Hi Todd,

Family styles have long been taught to learners outside the immediate clan. This doesn't change the fact that it's still a family style. Look at the Japanese style of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.

TSKSR is considered the personal fighting style of the Iizasa family and dates back to the mid-15th century. It has been handed down through the Iizasa family for twenty generations and taught to many learners who were not part of his family. These days, the family style is protected by Iizasa Yasusada, the 20th-generation head master of his family style, but he himself is not even a martial artist. Although this is a sensitive topic amidst the followers of the two different streams of this family style, it is, nonetheless, practiced by thousands all over the world and still considered "a family style."

Does this help?

[Patrick McCarthy]

Well, that is not always the case. In my case, I woke up on a hospital ship and have not to this day remembered what happened. That was sometime in late 1963. No Purple Heart, so whatever happened to me was just a long nap.

My Dad told me of hearing about some idiots in WWII who would shot themselves in the foot to get out of duty and get a Purple Heart. I asked him if he believes that, he said no. It does seem plausible since studying the subject I find that one reason some soldiers were promoted to sergeant was their ability to make cowards shoot their weapons. They had a knack of kicking butt, my dad would say. It happens. Hum, I thought only politicians shot themselves in the foot

I even found one past president of the VFW had falsified his record, added some juicy tidbits, medals and extra duty titles. Whenever you hear some so-called Vet jabbering about his time at war, beware of the BS.

Thanks Jeff,

I stand corrected.

[Todd Lambert]

Hi Todd,

Family styles have long been taught to learners outside the immediate clan. This doesn't change the fact that it's still a family style. Look at the Japanese style of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.

TSKSR is considered the personal fighting style of the Iizasa family and dates back to the mid-15th century. It has been handed down through the Iizasa family for twenty generations and taught to many learners who were not part of his family. These days, the family style is protected by Iizasa Yasusada, the 20th-generation head master of his family style, but he himself is not even a martial artist. Although this is a sensitive topic amidst the followers of the two different streams of this family style, it is, nonetheless, practiced by thousands all over the world and still considered "a family style."

Does this help?

Hello Patrick,

Yes, that does help me see where you're coming from when you discuss family styles here on the forum. Thank you for clarifying your definition. This is one of the problems we all face when discussing karate on the Internet. Basic definitions. Going back to the first post in this topic, Tim defines a family style as "...passed down only to family members or "special students" inducted into the family's inner circle". It appears that right from the start we have a fundamental disagreement over what constitutes a family style. It may be helpful to agree upon a basic reference point to help the flow of discussion. FWIW.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Hi Jon,

You wrote, “I think almost all karate styles or schools take an approach to fighting with a specific outcome in mind.”

Not only do I agree with your observation I think the entire issue of understanding ‘outcomes’ [or the lack thereof] is where much of the style-related problems lay. This is not just a setback here in the West, having lived and studied in Japan for nearly a decade, I am certain much of the problem emanated from cultural [mis]beliefs in spite of a genuine desire to pass down [misunderstood] heritage. A Confucian-based ideology [i.e., venerating one’s elders/seniors/leaders, and discouraging the questioning of authority], along with Japan’s conformist mindset [出る釘は打たれる/deru kugi wa utareru], along with other inflexible cultural mechanisms [homogeneous, male-dominated, highly discriminatory conformist culture], clearly illustrate how and why the trickle-down affect has perpetuated imitative-behaviour and blindly following incongruous rituls.

With Fujian-based Chinese-like kata practices haphazardly introduced to pre-war mainland Japan from Okinawa [FYI, this historically represented ‘family’ styles of that era], and the enormous influence Japanese Budo culture had upon its subsequent growth and direction, all learners of traditional karate should look outside the proverbial box in order to better understand this important part of glossed over history.

In 1995 I developed an undergraduate program aimed at accrediting martial arts instructors – regardless of style [please ask if you’re interested in learning more about this]. Like most 1st world countries, Australia’s Ministry of Education lays out a challenging web of bureaucratic red tape through which tertiary-level course writers must successfully navigate in order to have their programs accredited. My point here is that thanks to that unique experience in academia I came to see karate in new and unmitigated terms of outcomes, supporting practices and corresponding assessment criteria. No other single entity [except ignorance] has as much bearing on the finish product [style]. Whether it was warrior to disciple, monk to apprentice, teacher to student, mother to daughter or father to son, ‘style,’ and cultural influence, have, historically speaking, always been second to functionality…until modern times [i.e., the development of modern karate].

I also agree that an entire dissertation might better illuminate the darkness that tends to shroud this little discussed topic. Most folks are more concerned with protecting the integrity of their style, the reputation of their master, and or authenticity their lineage than they are with understanding its evolution and or how and why its rituals actually work.

Finally, Jon, thanks for the PM and explaining your background; I didn’t realize that you and Tim are both students of Dan Kogen with associations to Paul Babladalies and Ernie Estrada. Thanks for your candidness and best of luck in your studies.

[Todd Lambert]

Family styles have long been taught to learners outside the immediate clan. This doesn't change the fact that it's still a family style. Look at the Japanese style of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu.

TSKSR is considered the personal fighting style of the Iizasa family and dates back to the mid-15th century. It has been handed down through the Iizasa family for twenty generations and taught to many learners who were not part of his family. These days, the family style is protected by Iizasa Yasusada, the 20th-generation head master of his family style, but he himself is not even a martial artist. Although this is a sensitive topic amidst the followers of the two different streams of this family style, it is, nonetheless, practiced by thousands all over the world and still considered "a family style."

This to me would be an example of an iemoto system (family foundation) in Japanese martial arts. While the headmastership stays in the family line, the art itself may be practiced by members of the public accepted for enrollment. I have heard of something similar in some gung fu schools, where the leadership of the school is passed to family members, but membership itself is not limited to relatives of the leader. Perhaps Aikikai would be another example. The Ueshiba family retains leadership of mainline aikido, but membership is open to the general public. Getting back to karate and the Ryukyus, my own understanding of the OP was that Tim was asking about perceptions of hierarchy among current Okinawan schools of karate.

[Hanbaga]

It's fairly obvious that Tim and I have a similar epistemology, given our teachers. So, sorry if I loaded most of the questions on you, Pat.

Finally, Jon, thanks for the PM and explaining your background; I didn’t realize that you and Tim are both students of Dan Kogen with associations to Paul Babladalies and Ernie Estrada.

Errr....neither did I! How did you connect the dots on that one? I'm not sure you've read the bio info I sent you carefully. Perhaps I left a gap somewhere? No, actually I didn't. I think I was pretty direct in that I've always considered Paul Babladelis my teacher in Goju Ryu (no disrespect to Senaha sensei intended; he considers me his mago-deshi). To clarify, I have affiliations with Dan and Tim through the Shinjinbukan and I am a student of Onaga Yoshimitsu within that organization. Highlight above was my emphasis.

[Hanbaga]

Rats, I took the bait and went off-topic. Sorry folks.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Errr....neither did I! How did you connect the dots on that one? I'm not sure you've read the bio info I sent you carefully. Perhaps I left a gap somewhere? No, actually I didn't. I think I was pretty direct in that I've always considered Paul Babladelis my teacher in Goju Ryu (no disrespect to Senaha sensei intended; he considers me his mago-deshi). To clarify, I have affiliations with Dan and Tim through the Shinjinbukan and I am a student of Onaga Yoshimitsu within that organization. Highlight above was my emphasis.

Ooops...guess I screwed that one up. Was reading up on the Shinjinbukan and saw that you and Tim were both from the same group and got you confused with Tim who I read is one of Dan Kogen's students. Sorry for the confusion... your background was with Paul and Ernie. My bad. I'll try to pay more attention from here on in.

[Timothy.G.B.]

Hi Jonathon:

Regarding your question about family styles incringing on the territory of others who are flogging really old karate etc, I was thinking mostly in North America where anything that "hasn't been seen before" becomes the topic of some video series or seminar. In that sense, I was thinking that in Canada or the US or other similar places if one were wishing to market a DVD on secrect katas of a particular family style, that may threaten the likes of someone else trying to market seminars or DVD's on some "really old, really authentic karate from the past".

I am not knocking how that all works, because it all has to work in order for me to be able to purchase a DVD like the Choki Motobu karate one (which has some interesting stuff in it) !!

Best,
Tim

[Timothy.G.B.]

I am really enjoying the discussion and contributions on the Family Style issues so thanks.

My perception, as stated in my first post, was that Family styles and rare styles of karate, especially in North America, seem to be highly valued by many. It is only a perception I have, and one which I am open to changing or amending as the discussion goes on.

Todd, the issue of definition is an important one for an ongoing discussion so thanks for that point. If anyone else wants to chime in on a working definition of family style that would be interesting to read as well!

I appreciate the input regarding non family member students and family members learning a style of karate, with the lineage staying within the family, hence making it a family style.

Best to all,
Tim

[Victor Smith]

I wonder where the new publication of the Okinawan Karate and Kobudo Encylclopedia will come down as to family systems of study?

Of course it's only available in Japanese at this time and is far from cheap. It would be interesting to see how the Okinawan's address family practices.

[Patrick McCarthy]

... It may be helpful to agree upon a basic reference point to help the flow of discussion. FWIW.

Hi Todd,

Agreed. This is a wise observation, and one which has been called for many times over the years, and from various sources. However, far too much individualism in Karate prevents such a thing from happening anytime soon.

[Patrick McCarthy]

I wonder where the new publication of the Okinawan Karate and Kobudo Encylclopedia will come down as to family systems of study?

Of course it's only available in Japanese at this time and is far from cheap. It would be interesting to see how the Okinawan's address family practices.

Hi Victor,

Understanding Japanese cultue as I do, and looking at who collectively participated in the research and development of this project, and some of what was contributed, I am hopeful that we'll see something fresh and provoking. I would not, however, be completely surprised to see much of the same old self-serving stuff brought together into a single volume. Fingers crossed that I am wrong.

There's talk about an English translation but, from what I heard, argument over copyright, money and who will publish and profit from it has prevented this from happening just yet. Either way, you can be sure that the "good parts" will find their way into English long before an "official" translation is ever sanctioned.

FYI, I still have not received my copies of the new Bubishi yet

[Patrick McCarthy]

.... if one were wishing to market a DVD on secrect katas of a particular family style, that may threaten the likes of someone else trying to market seminars or DVD's on some "really old, really authentic karate from the past".

Very amusing...

I have been successfully teaching seminars and marketing DVDs on some "really old, really authentic karate from the past" for many years, and don't feel threatened by what's been written here. Like you, I too feel an obligation to question that which I find suspicious ... I certainly found Scoty's story less than credible, and I called him on it.

As an experienced and progressive traditionalist, I am happy to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of this art with most anyone. As a progressive traditionalist I frequently encounter opposition with conservative mentalities, especially the type not able, or willing, to think-outside-the-box. I greatly respect the Japanese heritage of our tradition, and admire the cultural legacy of its Okinawan pioneers, but I have outgrown overly ritualized and rule-bound practices being taught as "the original art," and the propaganda associated with promoting one style, school, or teacher over another.

I strongly believe that tradition is not about blindly following in the footsteps of the old masters, or even preserving their ashes, for that matter, but rather in keeping the flame of their spirit alive, and seeking out what they originally sought. This, I am certain, is far more in line with the message left to us all by the pioneers and it is certainly the position I in which I lead my group.

For anyone interested in knowing why I think like this please read this - http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/thinki...de_the_box.htm

[Hanbaga]

I've updated my profile with the bio information that I sent Patrick privately so anyone who wants to read it is welcome to.

Ooops...guess I screwed that one up. Was reading up on the Shinjinbukan and saw that you and Tim were both from the same group and got you confused with Tim who I read is one of Dan Kogen's students. Sorry for the confusion... your background was with Paul and Ernie. My bad. I'll try to pay more attention from here on in.

What? I don't get it. I thank you for the apology. But, umm...you reference both Tim and me in your mention of my background. Look, it's right here...

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Finally, Jon, thanks for the PM and explaining your background; I didn’t realize that you and Tim are both students of Dan Kogen with associations to Paul Babladalies and Ernie Estrada. Thanks for your candidness and best of luck in your studies.

So how would you have had me confused with Tim when you commented on both of us in your post? Furthermore, why did you bring up my background in the first place? Please note the following...

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Hi Patrick! I just sent you a little more background on me in a private post. Anyone else who is interested can e-mail me privately if you'd like. But I want to be steadfast in my goal to stay on subject .
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This is especially annoying, given that you placed so many direct misrepresentations in so few sentences (just one). Why you'd want to so succinctly do this, I'm not sure. To be clear,

1. Which sites were you looking at regarding the Shinjinbukan that lead you to the conclusion that I was Dan Kogan's student?
2. Also, where did I ever cite Dan Kogan anywhere in my bio material I sent to you?
3. How did you determine that I only had "associations" with Paul and Ernest? You obviously read the bio material because that's where you got Paul's and Ernest's names, both of whom I've cited as my teachers when back in Michigan.

Yes, in my opinion, an accidental misinterpretation seems rather unlikely. So, what gives?