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Thread: Titles in Okinawan martial arts?

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    Thumbs down Titles in Okinawan martial arts?

    Originally Posted by samertz
    ...I do have a set of checks and balances in place with Shihan Williams, Hanshi Alexander and Hanshi Sells.

    Other than a few years of Hayashi-ha Shito Ryu and Kenshin Ryu Kobudo (and that, many years ago), my knowledge of Karate-do in general and Okinawan martial arts in general is pretty limited.

    In the Japanese arts, terms like hanshi, renshi, and kyoshi are not used as honorifics, as far as I have seen. I have heard shihan used within the Karate schools I attended, but never in the Aikido, Kenjutsu, Jojutsu, or Iaido schools.

    Just as a doctor might be an M.D. or a D.O, yet we would refer to him or her as "Dr. Smith" not "M.D. Smith," so we would refer to Kurita Minoru Shihan as "Kurita Sensei" and not "Shihan Kurita." We refer to Tatsuhiko Konno, 7th dan, Renshi , as "Konno Sensei," not "Renshi Konno."

    So is it common in OMA to refer to teachers by titles like "Hanshi Smith" (or "Smith Hanshi") rather than "Smith Sensei" (or "Sensei Smith")?


    This was a submission in the Zenko Irei and ryuho kai thread, which went off topic, but as I have strong opinions on this subject I felt that it deserved a thread of its own. The question originally asked by Brian Owens was are there any titles used in Okinawan martial arts and when or how should they be used?

    I personally agree with many people that here is way too much emphasis put on titles and rank in the martial arts today. In one of those old articles in Inside Karate by Shirotatsu Nakamichi (whoever that may have been) he states clearly states that titles such as shihan are only referred to in writing, never orally. Glenard Grabow in one of his articles involving his training in Okinawa states that he and his teacher often referred to each other by their first names. Teaching licenses such as renshi, hanshi, and kyoshi are not teaching licenses per se, but thery are more recognition of an individual's service to the art.

    What really bothers me is the use of Asian titles when addressing non Asian individuals. It was pointed out in the forum alluded to above that the correct way in Asian verbiage is to address the instructor as Kyan sensei, rather than Sensei Kyan, which is the norm in the West, as we generally tend to address individuals by title then surname. This is fine when addressing an Asian instructor (who was raised in the Orient), but it seems stupid to use this verbiage when addressing an Occidental instructor. I don't know where a lot of these people grew up, but when I was growing up we referred to our teachers as Mr. Smith, Mrs. Williams, Miss Jones, etc (not a lot of Ms teaching when I was growing up), and I personally feel that addressing an Occidental instructor using Asian titles and social etiquette has more to do with satisfying someone's ego than it has to do with teaching culture or maintaining etiquette. It should be obvious to most non biased practitioners that karate (in general) went from China to Okinawa to Japan to Korea and then to the rest of the world. The Okinawans did not teach in Chinese, the Japanese do not teach in Okinawan, and the Koreans certainly do not teach in Japanese. I personally feel that titles and rank causes more trouble than it is worth.

    It has been noted elsewhere that the Okinawans, at least up to relatively recent times, were far more laid back (for lack of a better expression) in terms of titles and especially in rank than the Japanese, who seem to have a cultural obsession in this regard. John Sells, in an article that appeared in an issue of the now defunct Budo Dojo magazine, stated that the Okinawans did not even use the belt system until the 1950's. In one of the last issues of the same magazine, Gosei Yamaguchi, son of the founder of Japanese goju ryu who resides in San Francisco, stated that he teaches his classes exclusively in English. The only valid reason in my opinion for using Asian titles in particular and much of the terminology in general in most traditional karate (Japanese and Okinawan) schools is if a) your instructor is an Asian fully fluent in his native language, or b) if your school regularly hosts international students, Asian or otherwise, in which case the original terminology might serve as wasy of easily communicating with all present, much in the same way international terms are used in such activities as golf, hockey and fencing. However, most of the people training in traditional Okinawan karate in this country will never travel overseas, and will rarely if ever be exposed to non English speakers in their school to any great extent. While I would agree that there are some terms that cannot easily be translated into English, there are a very small minority overall, and I feel that, especially in regards to titles, one should use the native means of address in whatever country the art is being practiced, rather than using an exotic means of address in order to supposedly maintain etiquette or justify one's ego or inclinations.

    Sorry to go on so long, but I feel rather strongly on this issue based on my research and training, and I would be interested to hear what some other posters think
    Michael Martin

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    Michael - I think you're spot-on with this topic. There was a time when I really liked that our group of people in the dojo had their protocol set up with the super secret-handshakes and titles, etc. But, as of the last number of years, it seems really oppressive and unnecessary. I'm living in Okinawa now and of course follow a lot of protocol on the basis of me being a guest in another nation with it's own culture. When I'm back in the states, I see people I used to train with and they still call me "Jon-san" or even "Sensei". They bow to me when they see me in the supermarket, or the bar, and I'm usually obliged to bow back so as not to hurt their feelings or something. I think this is just freaking weird!

    Perhaps titles are a similar thing. A friend of mine does Aikido and he refers to one of his training partners by his first name outside the dojo and then as "Renshi _____" in the dojo. Again, why the title? I don't call my teacher "Kancho Senaha", for example. He's just "Shinshi". I really am trying to separate this when I'm with westerners. On the dojo floor, I have no problem calling someone "Sensei" but I really wished I hadn't fallen into the habit of doing so elsewhere. We reinforce a hierarchy through these titles and when we line up. I have to follow a sempai-kohai relationship pattern here at work all the time. But I reallllllllllllly don't see why it is necessary that it be done in the west other than as a bit of practice for when you visit Japan.
    Jonathon D. Hallberg

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    I think a balance has to be struck.

    Why do we use Japanese terminolgy in Western dojo? For the same reason we wear Japanese dogi, get Japanese ranks, and refer to what we do as Nippon/Nihon Bujutsu/Bugei/Budo.

    Without the ties to our heritage, we might as well doff our dogi and don shorts and tank tops...and then we'd be doing MMA.

    There's nothing wrong with MMA, but it's not my cup of ocha.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Yep, balance is beneficial for a variety of reasons. I have a whole range of words I can use in Uchinaguchi for techniques that seems to spice up the class and ads a lot of mystique. But the teacher who is sharing all of this stuff has us...um, training in shorts and tee-shirts about 80% of the time. Look at the old pics of Miyagi and other students working out in their underwear and you'll note a lot of convenience to this type of training. Okinawa is soooo hot and humid. I appreciate the option of just wearing shorts or gi pants if I'd like. And my teacher can comment on body position if he can see what is going on with my shoulders or knees for instance. I still feel like I'm doing karate. I still do kata, machiwara, chi ishi, two-person training, you name it. No MMA going on here.
    Jonathon D. Hallberg

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    I've read several interesting articles about the topic of rank on Charles Goodin's "Karate Thoughts" blog. While I don't always completely agree with everything he says, I find his posts good food for thought. For example:

    http://karatejutsu.blogspot.com/2007...p-by-rank.html
    Nullius in verba

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    Todd - that was a pretty good blog read. Thanks for sharing. Goodin seems to emphasize humility a lot. That seems to be the primary element of what karate-do is about for a lot of people. And I think it could be one of the main reasons people are willing to set their cultural standards aside and try a hierarchal (is that a word?) approach, especially when this way of doing things is so uncharacteristic of us. I've learned a lot from it. It's made me more self-aware and I've paid a lot more attention to the people around me as a result. But I think that so many of the good people I know who train, didn't become "good" people as a result of karate. More likely it provided a vehicle through which they could explore it. I'll keep an eye on Goodin's blog in the future. Hope all is well!
    Jonathon D. Hallberg

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    Default language

    Culture aside, I think every martial art or sport needs an international language. For instance in Fencing it's French (with some Italian as I recall). For instance Epee (sword), Piste (the thing you stand on), Fleche ('arrow' technique). I'm happy for the international language of Karate to be Japanese.

    The first time I trained in a none-English-speaking country (Belgium) I was partnered up with somebody who was (I think) Swiss.

    We managed to communicate using the bits of Japanese we knew.

    Which isn't much but a darn sight more than my Swiss (or do they speak French?).

    And considering the instructor was Japanese, and he was teaching students from many different countries we were only able to understand because of Japanese as a common language.
    Simon Keegan 4th Dan
    www.bushinkai.org.uk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Keegan View Post
    ...I think every martial art or sport needs an international language. ...I'm happy for the international language of Karate to be Japanese.
    That's a very good point.

    Sure Karate-do can trace its roots from Japan to Okinawa to Korea and China...even to India according to some; but it was in its Japanese form that it first became internationalized, so I think Japanese is wholly appropriate as the "official language."

    The first time I trained in a none-English-speaking country (Belgium) I was partnered up with somebody who was (I think) Swiss.

    We managed to communicate using the bits of Japanese we knew.

    Which isn't much but a darn sight more than my Swiss (or do they speak French?).
    Switzerland has four official languages: German, French, Italian, and Romansch. (However more Swiss citizens speak unofficial Serbo-Croatian, Albanian, Portuguese, Spanish, or English as a first language than speak Romansch -- it's almost a dead language.) Which language you run into most depends on where in Switzerland you are.

    Similarly, Belgium has two official languages: French and Flemish, the latter being related to Dutch.

    In case you're wondering how I know about languages in Switzerland, I'm a watchmaker. Many technical terms in watchmaking are French, since the French and French-speaking Swiss were early pioneers in horological history.

    Interestingly, though, the official language of WOSTEP, the Watchmakers of Switzerland Technical and Educational Program, is English. The textbooks are in English, all the instructors speak English, etc. Why? Because English is now the most widely spoken of all languages. As Latin was a millenium ago, so English is today.

    Even so, when I was at a Japanese cultural festival a few years ago and heard of group of Karate students start their performance by shouting, "Heian Number One!" it just sounded odd. Even for children, "Heian Shodan" shouldn't be too difficult to learn as a name.

    I say, let's keep the Japanese terminology in Japanese martial arts.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Mario McKenna's blog also has some interesting thoughts on rank and titles, and is well worth checking out.

    http://okinawakarateblog.blogspot.com/search?q=rank
    Nullius in verba

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    Good thread and good thoughts. I agree very much and will go a step further and state that if I EVER called my teacher, who is a Hanshi, anything but Sensei, I would probably be beaten (well at least scolded).
    Tony Partlow
    Shogen-Ryu Karate-Do
    www.shogen-ryu.org
    www.okinawa-shogenryu.com

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    Smile Thoughts on posts

    I have read all the posts in this column since I started it and would like to make some comments:

    Why do we use Japanese terminolgy in Western dojo? For the same reason we wear Japanese dogi, get Japanese ranks, and refer to what we do as Nippon/Nihon Bujutsu/Bugei/Budo. Without the ties to our heritage, we might as well doff our dogi and don shorts and tank tops...and then we'd be doing MMA. (Brian Owens)
    Culture aside, I think every martial art or sport needs an international language. I'm happy for the international language of Karate to be Japanese. (Simon Keegan)
    First off, Okinawan karate is not a Japanese martial art, it is an Okinawan martial art, or more accurately (according to one nit picker) a native folk art. As I previously stated, if you train on a regular basis with a native Japanese speaking instructor or in Okinawa or Japan or in a gathering of multi lingual participants, then using the Japanese terminology may be useful or even a necessity, but the vast majority of practitioners will never train overseas or in such a gathering, so using much of the original terminology is not necessary in an everyday situation. In this context basing the necessity of using a foreign language on who internationalized karate boils down to personal preference or (to put it bluntly) self justification.

    Without the ties to our heritage, we might as well doff our dogi and don shorts and tank tops...and then we'd be doing MMA. (Brian Owens)
    Based on my training, experience, and research, it’s my understanding that Okinawan karate does not consist of just kicks and punches, but also grappling, joint locks, bone breaks, and pressure point strikes (at least at the advanced levels). My knowledge of MMA is slim to none, but based on this example, I’d have to say that Okinawan karate has far more to offer in the way of mixed martial arts than any modern interpretation I have seen. As an additional comment on MMA, it would seem that if the performances of the MMA fighters on the History Channel’s Human Weapon series and the Discovery Channel’s Fight Quest series are any indication, most MMA practitioners would seem to be unprepared for any encounter that is not fought according to their “rules.”

    I have a whole range of words I can use in Uchinaguchi for techniques that seems to spice up the class and ads a lot of mystique. (Jonathan Hallberg)
    Even so, when I was at a Japanese cultural festival a few years ago and heard of group of Karate students start their performance by shouting, "Heian Number One!" it just sounded odd. (Brian Owens)
    As I also stated previously, there are some terms that are not easily translated into English, and at the top of that list are the names of the various forms (kata for you purists) and the names of the various weapons. In the case of the weapons, it is possible to use English equivalents, but you often have to use two to four word expressions to substitute for the original name, and since many of the tools do not have a corresponding Western equivalent, it is often easier just to use the original term.

    I agree very much and will go a step further and state that if I EVER called my teacher, who is a Hanshi, anything but Sensei, I would probably be beaten (well at least scolded). (Tony Partlow)
    Obviously I don’t know your instructor or in what style or class you train, but I’ve had the attitude for a long time that those who insist on being called Sensei (or Master) usually aren’t, and if your instructor feels that he needs to be addressed by a certain title in order to maintain his position, under the threat of verbal intimidation and /or physical assault, then someone has some serious self esteem issues.

    I would also like to add some observations on my comments to answer those who may question them. I will say that it is easy for me to have these positions since I fly solo. I currently train in Okinawan karate and kobudo, but I am not anyone’s formal student, I belong to no school or organization, and I have no rank in either (that I will claim now). Due to age, wear and tear, old injuries, and personal preference, I doubt I would be able to train with a class on a regular basis any way. I will also add that when I did formally train in Okinawan karate in the class we did use the native terminology and I had no problem referring to my instructor as Sensei because I felt that he merited the title based on his experience, ability, behavior, and most importantly his attitude. I cannot say the same for the individual who took over his class or many of the individuals I have trained with or under both before and after I trained with him. I personally feel that the knowledge and experience gained from training in the martial arts is far more valuable in the long term than any rank or title you may gain. I have been a black belt and an instructor, and frankly I found both to be highly overrated, and though I hope to again teach in the future when I feel competent to do so, I don’t feel the necessity to pretend to be something I’m not, and what I’m not is Korean, Japanese, Okinawan, or Chinese.

    In conclusion, I have benefited from some of the posts and will continue to read future posts. Obviously it is everyone's personal choice as to what terminology they choose to use when they train in their chosen art, but it is still my opinion that native or foreign terminology should only be an option for advanced students, and more often than not they are used (as Mr. Hallberg so aptly put it) “to spice up the class and add a lot of mystique” than for any practical reason among groups of Occidental practitioners who all speak the same language.
    Michael Martin

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    Regarding the terminology thing, there is merit to both arguments. I have been fortunate to have Japaneses students and one Rokudan in jodo train and teach at my dojo, so use of Japanese was important, as their English was not so good. But I did notice a couple of interesting and funny things when training with these folks.

    I had two Japanese female teenagers for a few classes who were foreign exchange students. They gleefully called me "teacha" instead of "Sensei" - they were proud to use the English words that they knew. However when it came down to training, I had to use Japanese terminology with them.

    The Japanese jodo shihan was just as proud to use his limited (but better) English. He did NOT use Japanese terminology for anything. But he got stuck at one point; he was trying to demonstrate a front natural stance with modifications preparatory to explaining them, but the English words eluded him. He looked to me and said, "Sir, what you call this?" I laughed, and in my best redneck voice I said, "Sir, we call this a mae shizentai, and we call this hanmi!" He shrugged, then laughed uproariously and said "OK! Mae shizentai!"

    On the other hand, as others pointed out, it is much simpler to designate techniques in Japanese when there are subtle but significant differences between technique, postures, principles, etc. Instead of saying a whole paragraph, you say one or two words (assuming you have already taught the students what those one or two words are in manifested form).

    It is also a universal technical language as previously noted, much like the Latin classifications for living things on this planet. One can say "rat snake" and still only have narrowed it down to a large family of diverse species found all over the world. Or one can say "Elaphe obsoleta quadrivittata" and be extremely specific immediately, instead of using common names that may apply to many unrelated snakes.

    How many "hip throws" and "arm blocks/interceptions" can you think of in Japanese terminology? Now try to explain the subtle differences in English, and see how many more words you must use to get the same point across.

    Usually use of the native language for the specific art you are teaching is simply a matter of expediency.

    Jeff Cook

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