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Thread: Beware of Propaganda and Hype

  1. #16
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    Mr. Sims,

    Exactly. I'm glad to see my logic has reached someone.

    There are some instructors who are not worried about outsiders mining their arts for information; either because they don't believe most will correctly understand the information (which could very well be), or because the art will survive regardless of the "small puddles" that result from splits from the main stream. Both make sense to me.

    On the other hand, Daito-ryu has a clearly conservative perspective, and has only been opened to the public in the last +100 years. Even after being taught openly, Sokaku and many others focused their efforts primarily on military and police since they had a "need to know". Sokaku clearly wasn't comfortable with accepting all students who applied for training, and was furthermore guarded with his inner teachings. It seems to me that there is a great deal of inner teachings in Daito-ryu, perhaps more than most/other ryu-ha, and quite a bit of it has never been released publicly. Some are developing whole arts around only superficial exposure to Daito-ryu. So I don't know if making the teachings public would completely kill the art or not, but it sure wouldn't be doing it any favors. One of the biggest problems Daito-ryu has is with prospective students being overwhelmed with misinformation or fraudulent claims to teach Daito-ryu, then either getting burned, or giving up because it is too hard to know who is real and who is not. What a pity.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Ricky,

    I'm sorry you recently had rank thrown in your face, but please don't project that on me. Perhaps if you were on the other side of the issue you might see things differently.
    Nathan,
    Forgive me if I seemed to be projecting onto you. That was not my intention at all. In fact, I don't recall you ever mentioning your own rank at all. Regarding the gentleman throwing rank in my face, you certainly don't need to apologise. I have trained many times at his dojo. If he could throw me as quickly or as well as he throws rank, I would be much more impressed and more likely to be insulted.

    Anyway, I hate to see us drawing up sides on this issue. I like training with all kinds of folks.
    Ricky Wood

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    Mr. Cuffee,

    Of late, and more than once, Dan has said something to the effect of, "I don't do Daito Ryu; I do mixed martial arts.....
    What he claims is that his methods are the same methods used in Daito-ryu aiki, and until recently, he used to claim that his internal conditioning WAS ITSELF the same thing as what Daito-ryu calls aiki. Some of us have been following his posts for a period of at least 10 years now.

    For the record though, I'm not interested in making this a bash-Dan thread, or specifically bash-anyone thread. Those that are behind the campaign (we'll call them the "Neigong-gumi") know who they are, and those that are reading need only understand that the most aggressive detractors of Daito-ryu have an agenda behind their repeated attacks.

    Ricky, agreed, and no harm done.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 9th October 2008 at 23:52.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  4. #19
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    On another thread that was just closed, I was accused of issuing "put downs and lectures" by opening this thread. In this other thread, Dan Harden, believing this thread was directed at him, stated it was "not too friendly". I agreed that it was not the intention of the thread to be "friendly" about the subject, by posting that it "wasn't supposed to be too friendly". However, my response to Dan should not degenerate the intent of this thread into a personal attack on Dan.

    I didn't mention anyone's names in this thread. My intent was simply to advise readers of what I see as a new, growing trend. I decided to post an "open letter" style announcement about it because the tactics being used in these "discussions" are of such a nature that many readers will only walk away confused and irritated. So I advised readers to use *their own* common sense, and to verify claims of training and affiliation independently. If Dan decided to take ownership publicly of this issue for his contribution to this growing trend, then that is on him. But I thought it best to clarify the intent of this thread lest others again warp what I've said into something else.

    Regards,
    Nice attempt to backpedal, Nathan. But, your next post sort of sums it up -- yet again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Well Cady, you would be wrong.

    This thread is not focused at "one person", since there are a "handful" of people (which is what I wrote in the opening post) that are involved.

    There is no inaccuracy or misinterpretation in this thread. That is the whole purpose of posting it, in fact. Attempts at "discussion" resulted in responses of subterfuge. So rather than continue bickering, I figured we'd let people use their own brains.
    Anyone following the threads could see that you crossed a line and started trying to undermine those "handful" (For everyone else that would be defined as Dan and me) with this "not too friendly" thread.

    It's amazing that you keep saying *other* people are spreading propaganda and hype, but you have yet to answer the question about *your* direct experiences with Tokimune, Kondo, and the Seishinkai. So, if others that don't have that experience are spreading propaganda, how then can we determine where your posts lie?

  5. #20
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Mr. Cuffee,



    What he claims is that his methods are the same methods used in Daito-ryu aiki, and until recently, he used to claim that his internal conditioning WAS ITSELF the same thing as what Daito-ryu calls aiki. Some of us have been following his posts for a period of at least 10 years now.

    For the record though, I'm not interested in making this a bash-Dan thread, or specifically bash-anyone thread. Those that are behind the campaign (we'll call them the "Neigong-gumi") know who they are, and those that are reading need only understand that the most aggressive detractors of Daito-ryu have an agenda behind their repeated attacks.

    Ricky, agreed, and no harm done.

    Regards,
    Huh, well, Nathan, how about you detailing your direct experience with regards to Dan and his training so that all of us reading will know *exactly* how it is that you know for sure that Dan's methods aren't Daito ryu aiki? You'd have to have training experience with Dan over years to understand what he is doing *isn't* Daito ryu. Especially since if you do the research you can find where, when, and with whom Dan trained. Unless you only have 10 years of reading his posts as your research?

    And I like how it's always the other side that has "attacks", but what you and Brian have done is really okay and fine. You crossed a line and still aren't admitting it.

    Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by elder999 View Post
    Of late, and more than once, Dan has said something to the effect of, "I don't do Daito Ryu; I do mixed martial arts.....
    Hi Aaron,

    That's very true. On the other hand, you'll notice that he's not posting on a forum for mixed martial arts. My complaint isn't really that he's claiming to do Daito Ryu now-- he very clearly makes no claim to be practicing/teaching Daito Ryu. However, there seems to be a suggestion somewhere in there that despite not currently practicing Daito Ryu he knows all that there is to know about it, and what he teaches/practices is based on his complete understanding of the principles of Daito Ryu. Leaving me to wonder how he is so certain that the internal principles that he knows are the principles of Daito Ryu.

    Of course, maybe I'm reading things into Dan's posts that he doesn't intend for me to read into them, but I'm not the only person who has gotten that impression from his posts. Perhaps a little clarification on his part wouldn't be a bad idea?

    Just to be clear, I'm not trying to condemn or criticize Dan; I've actually found many of his posts to be interesting and informative. I'm partly trying to articulate a complaint about his posts that I've heard both online and off-line from more than a few people and partly trying to show some of the questions his posts have raised with me when I have read them. I've got to say that I'd have a much better idea of how much credence to give his posts on the subject of Daito Ryu if I had a clearer idea of how much Daito Ryu he had practiced.

    To backtrack slightly, there seems to be this idea that the "secret" of Daito Ryu is internal power. While Daito Ryu clearly uses internal power generation as one facet of its training, I haven't seen any evidence one way or the other regarding whether or not internal training is one of the real "guiding principles" of Daito Ryu. All that's beyond me at the moment, of course; I've only been training for a year or so. However, if anyone is going to start suggesting that they know for sure what the core principles of an art are, I'll wonder how long they studied it to get that certain understanding.

    Oh, and Nathan, I'm sure that I've told you this before: Mr. Sims is my father. You won't find him on this forum.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    David,

    Excellent commentary. Thank you for saving us minor posters and lurkers the trouble of having to hold that opinion back any longer.

    All,

    A student of mine had mentioned that this thread got a bit out of hand and I hadn't really read much because I was on jury duty this week. I logged in to read it and I started to think how an outsider would see e-budo; a "community for Japanese Martial Arts and Culture", wow. I agree with Dan that there is a lot of animosity and maybe a lot of the animosity is "understandable" but hopefully not condoned. The issues that have been brought up will NOT be settled in any forum on the internet! So as not to bore anyone with long-winded posts rife with my own opinion, let me repeat what many before me and many after me have/will state: less talking/writing, more training.



    Hope to see you on the mat.

    Yours in Budo,

    Andrew De Luna
    Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu
    Last edited by lucky1899; 10th October 2008 at 03:38.

  8. #23
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    Default Here we go again...

    Mark,

    I can only assume you saw a couple of posters express an interest in looking at an alternate perspective to yours on this IMMA/DR conflict, and decided it was time to try to confuse my comments and position again. Tell you what. If you don't have anything constructive to add, then as I said before - keep it to yourself or take it offline. I've had enough of the Neigong-gumi throwing out accusations every time logic rears its ugly head.

    Nice attempt to backpedal, Nathan. But, your next post sort of sums it up -- yet again.

    Anyone following the threads could see that you crossed a line and started trying to undermine those "handful" (For everyone else that would be defined as Dan and me) with this "not too friendly" thread.
    Well, allow me to front pedal then. First of all, a handful of people does not consist of just you and Dan. I am aware of what happens outside this little world here on e-budo. "Not too friendly" means I've had enough of the subterfuge disguised as "friendly" discussions, and that this thread is pointed at calling the issue for what it is - propaganda and hype. Hopefully you understand where I'm pedaling, because I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

    It's amazing that you keep saying *other* people are spreading propaganda and hype, but you have yet to answer the question about *your* direct experiences with Tokimune, Kondo, and the Seishinkai. So, if others that don't have that experience are spreading propaganda, how then can we determine where your posts lie?
    You're missing an important point. I'm not going around the internet claiming to know what Daito-ryu aiki is. My comments are and have always been based almost exclusively on research of DR publications and personalities. I AM claiming that Dan (and others) continuously makes *authoratative* statements about Daito-ryu and aiki, but has not been able to support any of them with anything outside of implied statements supposedly made from unnamed big shots who have unknown experience. While I do have some direct experience with Kondo Sensei and the Seishinkai, it is not I, who am making any claims. Interestingly, I do happen to have extensive formal experience in aikido and other arts, all of which I am easily able to recall the names of my teacher(s) and levels of initiation.

    Huh, well, Nathan, how about you detailing your direct experience with regards to Dan and his training so that all of us reading will know *exactly* how it is that you know for sure that Dan's methods aren't Daito ryu aiki? You'd have to have training experience with Dan over years to understand what he is doing *isn't* Daito ryu. Especially since if you do the research you can find where, when, and with whom Dan trained. Unless you only have 10 years of reading his posts as your research?
    Dan and I have previously talked privately about some of our training and experiences. I know who Dan states he has trained with. But if he is not willing to state what we talked about publicly, then it's not for me to state it for him. Differences aside, I'm not going to publicly reveal statements I know were made to me in confidence. He hasn't stated them publicly yet, so I guess there must be a reason. But I've got a better idea - why don't you ask him yourself, or verify his claims directly.

    Whether I know what Daito-ryu "is" or not is irrelevant. As I've mentioned numerous times before, there STILL is not anyone with senior rank/initiation in Daito-ryu chatting on ANY of these internet forums - though some do have far more formal experience than others. My position is not that I necessarily know more (or less) about Daito-ryu than Dan, my position - as clarified one or two posts ago by someone else - is that Dan is not in a position to state that what he is doing is Daito-ryu. It's really very simple. Stop trying to make it seem like this is some kind of personal attack.

    Mark, I hope you enjoyed this last post, because it is the last of its kind I will entertain here. If this is the only type of fodder you have to offer, I suggest you resign yourself to simply dropping veiled put-downs about me on other forums ("the certain e-budo moderator" I believe) like Mike and Dan have.
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th October 2008 at 05:00.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    I would caution against attempting to condemn people whose personal motives, background (saying that one does not "do" Daito-ryu doesn't necessarily mean that one has not "done" Daito-ryu) and depth/breadth of knowledge one has not even attempted to explore or understand. Instead, why not look past individuals, and consider the possibility that the source of internal power in Daito-ryu may actually NOT be proprietary to Daito-ryu. The "flavor" of the application may be Daito-ryu, but not the skill and body conditioning itself. Open your minds to explore a wider world. Get to know the genuine internal Chinese arts, and Daito-ryu with its aiki, and then tell us whether you can discern any great difference between, say, aiki-age and peng-jing. Then we can have some truly interesting and engaging exchanges on these forums.
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 10th October 2008 at 05:05.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Cady, thanks for a more tempered reply.

    You're right about the age old opposing points of view between traditionalists and modernists. I don't believe that is the specific problem in this current case, though I'm sure it is a contributing factor. I am happy with acknowledging that traditional training is not for everyone. No problem. The problem I have is with others CONSTANTLY picking at traditionalists.

    Has anyone else noticed that myself and others have NEVER gone over to a CMA or MMA forum and asked them why they do things the way they do, that it is flawed, that this or that teacher is the laughing stock with my buddies, or that our way is better? People in traditional arts, and Daito-ryu people in particular, have been on the defensive against hecklers for many, many years. You are in our forum - we are not in your forum marketing our products to you. This is a key point nobody wishes to acknowledge.

    Hapkido? MMA? "Internal Aiki" (whatever that term means)? Great! Enjoy yourselves. But if you can't resist strip mining and "us against them", then make your own forums (speaking generally right now, not specifically at Cady).

    The irony is that those who synthesize and innovate nearly always pay homage to the traditional arts from which they received their foundation skills.
    You call it "paying homage". But I can tell ya - it comes off as being nothing more than using historical, respected arts, as a base to obtain credibility in an art someone has just created. Also, paying homage to an art while at the same time attempting to discredit the current generation of members (aka: the competition) is not going to make a lot of new friends in said group.

    As far as exotic sources, sure, nearly ALL Japanese budo has some degree of roots in China. So what? That doesn't make Japanese arts the same as Chinese arts. Personally, I already went through my Chinese martial art phase. Fun stuff, but I decided to specialize in Japanese methodology.

    For those that can't respect the wishes of the current generation of members in the traditional arts to maintain control of their own teachings, o.k. We'd prefer that people would just extend the courtesy to those in historical arts to let them preserve them the best way they see fit. But if you have to bait and badger members, strip-mining extant arts of their inner teachings, at least have some kind of ethics and call it something else that is not proprietary terms/names used in other arts. Even if you are truly convinced it is the "same".

    I would caution against attempting to condemn people whose personal motives, background (saying that one does not "do" Daito-ryu doesn't necessarily mean that one has not "done" Daito-ryu) and depth/breadth of knowledge one has not even attempted to explore or understand.
    First of all, that goes both ways. But let's stop with the endless implications of training and experience if we're not going to talk about it. From looking around the net, it sounds like everyone is tired of it.

    Personally, I'm not closed minded. I find all of it interesting on varying levels. However, I'm also deeply driven to delve further into the arts I study. There is a point where you have to specialize in something if you want to get good at it. Unless you intend to make up your own MMA, sampling a little bit of everything will eventually end up being a distraction from the tradition that is sitting right in front of you staring you in the eyes.

    Are the Neigong-gumi internal methods the *same* as Daito-ryu? Do they represent the Daito-ryu teachings the *same* way? None of us knows for sure. They may be a little close, or a lot of close. Maybe the methods being advertised really are more Chinese IMA than Japanese. Furthermore, some may also be mistaking what the principles actually are as being something else when trying to talk about the same methods. But what we do know is that we are not qualified to make such a claim without being deeply initiated into the system. That's just common sense. Just call it something else and don't worry about what Daito-ryu is or isn't doing.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th October 2008 at 05:36.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #26
    Mark Murray Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    I've had enough of the Neigong-gumi throwing out accusations every time logic rears its ugly head.

    "Not too friendly" means I've had enough of the subterfuge disguised as "friendly" discussions, and that this thread is pointed at calling the issue for what it is - propaganda and hype.

    You're missing an important point. I'm not going around the internet claiming to know what Daito-ryu aiki is. My comments are and have always been based almost exclusively on research of DR publications and personalities. I AM claiming that Dan (and others) continuously makes *authoratative* statements about Daito-ryu and aiki, but has not been able to support any of them with anything outside of implied statements supposedly made from unnamed big shots who have unknown experience. While I do have some direct experience with Kondo Sensei and the Seishinkai, it is not I, who am making any claims. Interestingly, I do happen to have extensive formal experience in aikido and other arts, all of which I am easily able to recall the names of my teacher(s) and levels of initiation.

    Dan and I have previously talked privately about some of our training and experiences. I know who Dan states he has trained with. But if he is not willing to state what we talked about publicly, then it's not for me to state it for him. Differences aside, I'm not going to publicly reveal statements I know were made to me in confidence. He hasn't stated them publicly yet, so I guess there must be a reason. But I've got a better idea - why don't you ask him yourself, or verify his claims directly.

    Whether I know what Daito-ryu "is" or not is irrelevant. As I've mentioned numerous times before, there STILL is not anyone with senior rank/initiation in Daito-ryu chatting on ANY of these internet forums - though some do have far more formal experience than others. My position is not that I necessarily know more (or less) about Daito-ryu than Dan, my position - as clarified one or two posts ago by someone else - is that Dan is not in a position to state that what he is doing is Daito-ryu. It's really very simple. Stop trying to make it seem like this is some kind of personal attack.

    Mark, I hope you enjoyed this last post, because it is the last of its kind I will entertain here. If this is the only type of fodder you have to offer, I suggest you resign yourself to simply dropping veiled put-downs about me on other forums ("the certain e-budo moderator" I believe) like Mike and Dan have.
    Logic. It's, well, logical. So, if you have never trained with Dan and don't know what he's doing, then you can't understand if what he is doing is Daito ryu or not. That's simple logic.

    If you're stubbornly calling what Dan does as "body skills" and not "aiki", then you are claiming to know what Daito ryu aiki is. You'd have to know it to know what others are claiming really isn't aiki. Logic.

    If "there STILL is not anyone with senior rank/initiation in Daito-ryu chatting on ANY of these internet forums" as you say, then you can't know if any of what we're talking about is propaganda or not. It's pretty simple logic.

    And if you don't have in depth experience with Tokimune's organization, Kondo, or the Seishinkai, it's really hard to tell people what is or isn't hype about the situation.

    As for the veiled put downs ... If you recall, E-Budo banned Mike, so he doesn't have a say here. You can take pot shots at him all you like and he can't reply. Who do you think is the better man -- the one who invites someone onto a private, personal forum to let that someone have a voice -- or someone who posts negative things about the other when the other doesn't have a voice? I would imagine it to be nice to be King and be able to shut down threads one didn't like and ban people who didn't agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Murray View Post
    If you recall, E-Budo banned Mike
    But he's such a charming guy.
    Actually, I have learned a lot from Mike's post's. I'm sorry he's banned.
    Ricky Wood

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    The moderators, not just me, came up with some guidelines for Mike and he did not want to accept those terms. End of story. Let's not bring his name up anymore about any banning.
    George Kohler

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    Mark,

    I don't have to know what Dan is doing. Dan has to support his claim that what he is teaching is what he claims it is. The same as other arts. He claims it is the same as DR aiki, and the missing element of aikido. Support it. The burden is on him, not me. I hope this sinks in this time. Unsupported authoratative claims and repeated posts that are unwaiveringly argumentative and inflamatory, crafted in order to cause doubt and confusion, IS propaganda.

    Here, let me help you out:

    Propaganda:

    1 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person

    2 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause ; also : a public action having such an effect

    Hype:

    1 : put on , deceive

    2 : publicity ; especially : promotional publicity of an extravagant or contrived kind

    Sound familiar to anyone else?

    And if you don't have in depth experience with Tokimune's organization, Kondo, or the Seishinkai, it's really hard to tell people what is or isn't hype about the situation.
    If you'd read my posts, you'd realize that what I am posting is mostly from published interviews. Some is also based on documentation provided by Kondo Sensei to me or based on the debates we had with the Seishinkai that I spearheaded on their old forum back in 2000 (that may have been before your time, but ask around). None of it, except for those statements I post as opinions, is based on my own training and experience. Good job on your research.

    As far as attacks on people who are no longer here, I didn't attack him. I posted a link to someone else who had a valid sounding critique of something he is teaching. Others clearly didn't want to talk about it and felt it was in poor taste to acknowledge the critique somewhere he couldn't reply to, so I deleted it.

    Time to move on Mark. You're just talking in circles.
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th October 2008 at 18:09.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Murray View Post
    Logic. It's, well, logical. So, if you have never trained with Dan and don't know what he's doing, then you can't understand if what he is doing is Daito ryu or not. That's simple logic.
    Hold on a second, Mark. How far are you willing to take that? Every time we run across the website of some guy who is clearly teaching an eclectic fusion of Taekwando and Hollywood-fu under the name of "Miyamoto-ha Uber Daito Ryu," are you going to say, "Well, guys, they claim to be practicing the same principles of Daito Ryu under the guise of what looks like Taekwando-movie-fu, and unless you've trained with them, there's no way to know if what they are doing is Daito Ryu or not. We have to believe them." Do you really want to go through every post in Baffling Budo and say "we can't judge this guy's claims since none of us can provide documented evidence of his entire training history, and none of us have gone to his home to see if he can really levitate?" The burden is on the guy making the claim to prove himself to his audience, not on the audience to debunk him.

    Dan is making the claim that what he does is the same as Daito Ryu. Now, I can't force Dan to tell me anything, but if he wants me to give that claim full weight, then he'll at least need to convince me that he's had enough exposure to Daito Ryu to make an informed decision on whether or not what he's doing is the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cady Goldfield
    consider the possibility that the source of internal power in Daito-ryu may actually NOT be proprietary to Daito-ryu. The "flavor" of the application may be Daito-ryu, but not the skill and body conditioning itself.
    While admitting that I don't have enough experience to know for sure, I suspect that you are 100% correct on that point. The issue is that I also suspect that there is a lot more to Daito Ryu than just internal power, and I'm not entirely convinced that the term "aiki" refers to anything related to internal power. I think that people are putting way to much emphasis on the internal aspect of Daito Ryu, and an outsider might think that this is all that the art is about.

    Ah, well. I probably speculate too much, and I definitely train too little. I should work on that.
    Last edited by DDATFUS; 10th October 2008 at 17:32. Reason: I need a guinness. I'll have a couple at 4, but I want one now.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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