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Thread: Listing of Okinawan Karate Ryuha

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsomers View Post
    Is this art taught by anyone in Okinawa still? Was it founded there, or founded here in the US, after he moved here?
    Prince, I'm still not sure about Shudokan either. I can tell you that Kanken Toyama is profiled in Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei's new book. A book where he profiles 39 Shuri Te, & Kobudo Sensei.

    David
    It was founded there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsomers View Post
    Prince, I'm still not sure about Shudokan either. I can tell you that Kanken Toyama is profiled in Nakamoto Masahiro Sensei's new book. A book where he profiles 39 Shuri Te, & Kobudo Sensei.

    David
    Is there anything in the book that indicates Toyama Sensei's style ?
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Hi Prince; No, there's no mention of his style. But, the list of people he trained with was like a who's who of that time, including Itosu Sensei, Higashionna, Kentsu Yabu, and bojutsu w/ Oshiro; among others.

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    In Regards to Motobu Ryu my understanding is Choki Motobu never studied the art. Because he was not the oldest son he was never taught.
    I am not sure how to answer the question of who started the art. Because the name has changed over the years
    In 1187 King Shunten studied Go ten te
    It is believed that either Motobu Choyo or Uehara Seikichi renamed the art Motobu Ryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    In Regards to Motobu Ryu my understanding is Choki Motobu never studied the art. Because he was not the oldest son he was never taught.
    I am not sure how to answer the question of who started the art. Because the name has changed over the years
    In 1187 King Shunten studied Go ten te
    It is believed that either Motobu Choyo or Uehara Seikichi renamed the art Motobu Ryu

    I spoke with Mr. Uehara many years ago and he told me Motobu Choki did in fact study the art his older brother learned but only by looking through a whole in the garden wall and spying on him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Habusan View Post
    I spoke with Mr. Uehara many years ago and he told me Motobu Choki did in fact study the art his older brother learned but only by looking through a whole in the garden wall and spying on him.
    Yes, I have read that before and although I have no doubt that watching the sessions was educational I have trouble listing him as someone who practices the art. This may be my personal hang up. I'll have to spend some time thinking about it. But by what you have told me I think we both agree he should not be listed as the founder?

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    Even if Motobu Choki did learn the family art, IMO, he developed his karate into something else. The way I understand it, The Motobu family art was renamed Motobu Undunte and Choki's art is going by Motobu-ryu. This according to an article I read in the Dragon Times, if I am not mistaken.

    Peace in the New Year.
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsomers View Post
    Hi Prince; No, there's no mention of his style. But, the list of people he trained with was like a who's who of that time, including Itosu Sensei, Higashionna, Kentsu Yabu, and bojutsu w/ Oshiro; among others.
    This is also my understanding. Again, where does that leaves us with "Shudokan" as well Toyama Sensei ?

    Thanks !
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyuck3X View Post
    Even if Motobu Choki did learn the family art, IMO, he developed his karate into something else. The way I understand it, The Motobu family art was renamed Motobu Undunte and Choki's art is going by Motobu-ryu. This according to an article I read in the Dragon Times, if I am not mistaken.

    Peace in the New Year.
    Do you remember the source or author of this Ray ? As I understand this, Choki did not have a "ryu" at that time. If anyone can assist me with the following statement if they are facts:

    1)Motobu-ryu (本部流, Motobu-ryu?) is a school of karate founded by Choki Motobu in 1923. The official full name is Nihon Denryu Heiho Motobu Kenpo ("Japan's traditional tactics Motobu Kenpo").
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Here you go Prince.

    As per Classical Fighting Arts Issue, Vol. 2 No. 11 (issue#34), page 49, translated by Kiko Asai Ferreira, edited by Feliciano Ferreia and Charles Goodin. "Choki Motobu's son, Chosei Motobu, asked Kiko Asai Ferreira, to work under his direct supervision, and make English translations of the lost interviews. We present those translations here, followed by comments by Chosei Motobu, who carries on the traditions of Motobu-Ryu (from his father, Choki Motobu) and Motobu-Ryu Udunte (from his uncle, Choyu Motobu, as taught to him by Seikichi Uehara)."

    Peace.
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyuck3X View Post
    Here you go Prince.

    As per Classical Fighting Arts Issue, Vol. 2 No. 11 (issue#34), page 49, translated by Kiko Asai Ferreira, edited by Feliciano Ferreia and Charles Goodin. "Choki Motobu's son, Chosei Motobu, asked Kiko Asai Ferreira, to work under his direct supervision, and make English translations of the lost interviews. We present those translations here, followed by comments by Chosei Motobu, who carries on the traditions of Motobu-Ryu (from his father, Choki Motobu) and Motobu-Ryu Udunte (from his uncle, Choyu Motobu, as taught to him by Seikichi Uehara)."

    Peace.
    Thanks Ray !
    Prince Loeffler
    Shugyokan Dojo

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    Motobu Ryu has a lot of conflicting information on it. My Sensei has a fourth degree black belt in Motobu Ryu. My understanding from him is that Motobu Choki never studied the art. He as warned us several times that in researching the art we should be aware of this misinformation that is out their. If someone really wanted to know I guess the next step would be to contact Seitoku Higa or Uehara Seikichi. I would be really interested in the results.

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    Classical Fighting Arts, Vol. 2 No. 12 (issue #35) has an article about Toyama Kanken.

    "Born in Shuri, Okinawa under the family name Oyadomari. Graduated from the Okinawa Yeacher's College. Toyama was a student of Itarashiki Penchin, one of Matsumura's best students. In Taiwan while working as a teacher, Toyama studied Chinese Chuan'fa under Sho Seiko (Japanese reading). in 1935 he traveled to Tokyo and founded the Shudokan dojo and began instructing students. He was particularly skilled at Koryu Useishi (Gojushiho) kata."

    The whole article is about his opinion that karate should not be divided into variant styles.
    "Even with countless variations, in the end there is only one orthodox style of karate, much the same as there is only one "style" of sumo wrestling and boxing. Indeed, all of them stand upon ability and mental condiioning. What then is a "karate style"."

    My take is that he did not want to be classified and that his mindset was that of the older generation that did not have a ryuha, but instead, went by Motobu-ha Karate or Chibana-ha Karate. Your karate was what it was and you stood by your training. No two were alike. Just look at Funakoshi and Mabuni. Both students of Itosu, but their kata were slightly different.

    Peace.
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    Motobu Ryu has a lot of conflicting information on it. My Sensei has a fourth degree black belt in Motobu Ryu. My understanding from him is that Motobu Choki never studied the art. He as warned us several times that in researching the art we should be aware of this misinformation that is out their. If someone really wanted to know I guess the next step would be to contact Seitoku Higa or Uehara Seikichi. I would be really interested in the results.
    I have not run across any documentation stating that Choki ever learned the entire family art. The most I have read, seems to be his watching from behind a fence or an occasional bout with the elder brother. It is his son that learned both systems. BTW, I believe Uehara Sensei passed away back in '04.

    Did your teacher learn through the Uehara line or the Chosei Motobu line? Not that it matters, I was just curious...
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    . But by what you have told me I think we both agree he should not be listed as the founder?
    Please don't put words in my mouth.
    I never said I didn't think he shouldn't be listed as a founder.
    Motobu Choki founded his own art, he was not the person that called Goten Di Motobu Ryu, and the two should never be confused. Motobu Choki's son trained for a while under Uehara Seikichi in order to learn the "Gotendi" version of Motobu Ryu. However, Choki's son mainly learned his father art and his Gotendi training was limited, or so I was told.
    I believe it was Mr. Uehara that started to use the name Motobu Ryu back around 1947 for respect of the family that taught him.
    I think the Motobu family (Choyu and his father) never referred to the art as "Motobu Ryu" but rather as "Gotendi".

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