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Thread: Daito ryu USA (John Denora)

  1. #31
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    Default last one...

    And from Vol.26/ No.1:

    Reply to Letter on Bogus Rankings

    I read with curious amusement the letter posted in your last magazine by Mr. Williams. I found your response restrained and factual as usual. I would like to interject an experience I had concerning the gentleman in question.

    A couple of years ago a student of mine approached me with a flyer promoting a seminar in New York. Being a relative beginner, he asked me if I thought he should attend this seminar. He had overheard me praise aikijujutsu as one of our senior instructors in Shindo Yoshin Kai Jujutsu is also a student of Yanagi Ryu and Don Angier.

    I must say, bells and whistles went off in my head when I read the promotional flyer. Grandiose statements such as "Highest level aiki ever taught outside of Japan by a non- Japanese!" and "Founder of the Year 95" are in my mind immediate cause for suspicion but not necessarily dismissal. I decided to call the gentleman in question and ask him what qualifications he had to make such claims.

    The gentleman who answered the telephone introduced himself as Soke (Headmaster). I explained that I was a Shindo Yoshin Ryu instructor under Yukiyoshi Takamura and that one of my students had received a flyer about a seminar at this location. The claims on the flyer seemed pretty grandiose so I was checking out these claims as I felt obligated to make sure that this seminar was on the level before I gave any student the okay to attend. The gentleman seized on that opening and explained that not only was he associated with the Daito-ryu Roppokai and Seigo Okamoto, but that Okamoto Sensei had personally authorized him to improve the Roppokai curriculum. Well, this was fascinating news! A hitherto unknown instructor in New York authorized to improve Roppokai techniques by its founder... (Who was this guy kidding!)

    I casually mentioned that it was my understanding that Brently Keen, in Santa Cruz, California was the only Roppokai instructor presently teaching in the U.S. Boy, the backpeddaling started quickly. Well, it seems, that the letter from Okamoto Sensei hadn't actually arrived yet, but it was expected anyday! "Oh," I exclaimed, "so officially you are not presently associated with the Roppokai at all." "Well, no," he exclaimed, "But I will be any day now!" I continued to press him about why he tried to mislead me. He finally told me that it was "just marketing." I told him "that in Connecticut we called it lying." With that, the phone call mysteriously ended.

    I forwarded information on this incident to Seigo Okamoto Sensei as I thought he should investigate this incident himself. Were I in his shoes I would certainly want to know about this serious misrepresentation involving his name and reputation. I believe a response was soon crafted in Japan by senior instructor Jose Lopez at Okamoto's request adn that this person no longer misleads people, well, at least as it pertains to hsi association with the Roppokai.

    Now, I believe Mr. Williams in defending this gentleman, intended to accuse editor Stanley Pranin of misrepresenting the facts for the purpose of "marketing". Pardon me, Mr. Williams, but given my personal experience with this "Soke", I find that ironic and laughable to say the least!

    David Maynard, Chief Instructor
    Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai
    Interesting.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #32
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    Now as to some of my recent conversations w/ a former student. According to this person, Mr. Denora apparently has a habit of badmouthing people to others, being very verbally abusive towards his students, and occasionally throws tantrums in class. The student seemed puzzled over his behavior, not bitter or angry with him--actually expressed concern and wondered if this was a personality flaw he couldn't help, or maybe something related to an organic health problem. . .who knows. Due to _my_ skepticism, actually sent
    me a copy of a video of a seminar which Denora did that opens with him
    basically telling the seminar participants how unworthy they were of his presence, and of Daito Ryu!
    Sounds like Mr. Denora was just emulating his former instructor, Fredrick Lovret. Why do these guys always assume that physical and/or emotional abuse is part of budo? More importantly, why do their students and followers accept this type of behavior?

  3. #33
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    Dear Don:

    "....Sounds like Mr. Denora was just emulating his former instructor, Fredrick Lovret. Why do these guys always assume that physical and/or emotional abuse is part of budo? More importantly, why do their students and followers accept this type of behavior?...."

    For the same reason that people will flock to a bad instructor with Oriental features before attending a class taught by a quality teacher with Occidental features.

    For the same reason that some students don't feel like they are getting the "real deal" in their MA classes if they are not run like Basic Training.

    For the same reason that some students figure if a teacher is soft, agreeable, and supportive he can't be anywhere NEAR as tough or competent as one who is loud, hard and distant.

    For the same reason that folks will train their bodies but will not generalize the code or belief system to their behavior outside of the school in their dealing with the community.

    Answer: For most people martial arts are really "martial theatre" with certain people playing certain roles, dressing particular ways and acting out their staging and lines. The idea that they are participating in a growth experience, albeit an anachronistic one, simply does not come into the picture. Deviate from their perception of how the martial theatre comes together and you have an empty school, and so, a failed commercial MA venture. Feeding the fantasies of ones' students may not be honest, but it tends to keep the cash flowing. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  4. #34
    MarkF Guest

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    John Denora accepting his certificate in the World Head of Families Sokeship Council.

    Mark

  5. #35
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    Good points all, Bruce.
    For the same reason that people will flock to a bad instructor with Oriental features before attending a class taught by a quality teacher with Occidental features.
    Sometimes it seems like the really bad instructors with with Occidental features try to cover their incompetency with fake Oriental features. Yep, I guess it is theater for some.
    For the same reason that some students don't feel like they are getting the "real deal" in their MA classes if they are not run like Basic Training.
    I've got nothing against hard physical training, but the boot camp mentality is all wrong. The Marines use this kind of boot camp treatment for completely different reasons, i.e., to build teams and leaders. This is not appropriate for martial arts training, though. Furthermore, most of those participating in this kind of martial arts boot camp mentality don't have the background or experience to do it properly in the first place. They are just emulating some image of how boot camp training should be from movies or something.
    For the same reason that some students figure if a teacher is soft, agreeable, and supportive he can't be anywhere NEAR as tough or competent as one who is loud, hard and distant.
    The toughest judo competitors I know were the gentlest people off the mat. Those with big mouths and a braggart's heart didn't seem to last very long. Maybe because sooner or later they ran into tougher competitors and their egos would not allow them to deal with the issue.
    For the same reason that folks will train their bodies but will not generalize the code or belief system to their behavior outside of the school in their dealing with the community.
    Right on the money!

  6. #36
    Jerry Johnson Guest

    Default O.K. Who did Denora piss-off to get this treatment?

    At this point this thread has got my intrest. But it is so coded and obscure it is hard to know what all the fuss is about. Now, has anyone trained with Mr. Denora? Has anyone one seen Mr. Denora do what he claims. Second of all, why is everyone getting worked up about him anyway. For some it is the Lovett song and dance and that is clear, for others what sticks in your craw about him. I have never hear of him until this thread, clearly some people are really worked up over him. I hope this isn't a self-rewarding witchhunt, rather ( which some posts demonstrate ) a clarification of credentials and deterimination of skill and background in a civil manner. On his webpage last time I looked there was no background info. so as far as I can see this is a matter of determining creditials,and not personal attacks because of some association with some unfavor instructor by some.

    I think information should be presented, as it has per the magazine articles, that focuses or outlines creditials with out all this personal garabage ( so it is without noise) allowing the reader to determine the validity of this instructor.

    Already we know people are pissing and flaming each other and jumping on the bandwagon, and who for some reason or the other personally dislike Mr. Denora.Clearly Mr. Denora is well versed in retaliation. But, I have not read nothing about his skill, or a clear unbias presentation of all the facts. Something as an unbais reader I would like to read rather then the personal doo do. Then allow Mr. Denora to dispute presented. In this way it is much more benefiticial to the reader.

    How big is his dojo? How big is his organization? Is he commerical or not. What makes him such a threat to some. What is his background and connections. These things as others should be addressed and discussed.

    Facts like rank are not personality flaws and is pertainent, right? Also people backing up their claims, rather then just frothing at the mouth. I mean if someone is a bassturd on or off the mat that is an abstract and complaining about it isn't of greater value. Determining if there is an infraction of fraud of public dojo based on presented facts that are supported is much better, than name calling.

    Personally, I don't care if this person is a fraud or not. I care on in the manner it is handled. The world Soke or what ever it is organization speaks for its self. I am not in favor of it, yet if that is what people what to associate with fine.


    When I did some web searching on Daito Ryu I didn't see Denora's name or read his involvment or association with Daito Ryu.com or .org, Roppokai, or the other one...I forgot but it starts with a Tak...? I searched Daito Ryu-USA ( his page appeared ), and Daito Ryu Bokuroku(?) his name didn't appear. This alone is enough to say something to me....am I the only one?

    If this Mr. Denora's own style he is doing and this is his own thing then what is the beef? Why are people threatened? Also as another matter,If Mr. Denora is hijacking a style as his own then the facts must be presented. Finally, how important is Mr. Denora in the martial arts world to lose sleep over? It would be nice to read that other then the mudsling bangwagon parade that can happen here on E-Budo.

  7. #37
    Jerry Johnson Guest

    Default Re: O.K. Who did Denora piss-off to get this treatment?

    Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
    Finally, how important is Mr. Denora in the martial arts world to lose sleep over? It would be nice to read that other then the mudsling bangwagon parade that can happen here on E-Budo.
    CLearly, I speak for myself in the quote above. I allways value substance in discussions over junk/enterntainment in threads like these.

  8. #38
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    Mr. Johnson,

    I appreciate your concern about the intent of this thread. This thread, like many here, were started some time ago by someone asking for information about him. Available information was offered, and in cases such as this, the information is not always positive. Mr. Denora has come on to, well, slam those that did not say positive things about him. In the interest of being fair, I've invited the people being discussed in threads like these to come offer their point of view on several occaisons. So this is not what I would consider a witch hunt.

    Most of your questions have already been addressed in this thread, either explicitly or implicitly. Specific time in training and ranks earned is something that Mr. Denora has not offered, though.

    This thread has been and still is fairly well tempered, though it is bordering on getting out of hand. There are a number of people who have written to me privately to offer their personal experiences, which are valuable, but as I said before - opinions about skill level are only opinions.

    It may not be of concern to you, but fraudulent (or irresponsible) behavior - based on lack of orthodox instruction/credentials (lineage issues) - is of concern to us.

    Mr. Denora's name is well known in AJJ circles, so it was a matter of time before some of this information made it to the net. As you noticed though, he does appear to be operating independently.

    Look around this forum and you will find a number of people being discussed who are fraudulently using the Daito ryu name. It is a popular name (big money maker for some), so everybody wants to get some, but do not want to earn it the hard way. The ones that have earned the name you will rarely hear about on the net, because they are apparently far less interesting to discuss(!). Go internet.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  9. #39
    Jerry Johnson Guest

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    I agree with your first paragraph whole heartedly. The only thing I don't agree with is I feel some of what was presented in the articles are code and obsure. This has nothing to do with you posting it. I am not into Daito Ryu to know the history and background on Denora. I was hoping there would be some claification on the obscure portions of the article. This is minor point.

    I feel the discuss for being an E-Budo one is handle well. I just was voicing my concern with my witchhunt comment, as some posters who for sport tend to hijack the thread turning it in a witch hunt. Filling the thread with trash/ piss fighting posts. The thread like I said is pretty good interms of being unbias, fair and objective then most. In this way it is more of a service for people to make a determination. This thread lacks, trolls, bulling or gang-bang flaming posts by posters who have no connection to the subject having nothing better to do than gang up on someone for sport. Or someone who singles out per se Denora thrashes him for the sake of keeping a high profile. The thread has kept its tact for the most part.

    The articles as coded as they are indicates that someone has intelligence enough to present them in this thread as support to refute . This isn't typical in my opinion when someone is caught in the adolecence crosshairs of E-Budo flamers.

    It may not be of concern to you, but fraudulent (or irresponsible) behavior - based on lack of orthodox instruction/credentials (lineage issues) - is of concern to us.


    It is a concern despite what some hack posters believe. Equal in concern is how it is handled. I feel it should be done intelligently, fairly, and maturely. I don't feel vitual lynching and gang/mob mentality is any way to handle such matters important manners.

    Look around this forum and you will find a number of people being discussed who are fraudulently using the Daito ryu name. It is a popular name (big money maker for some), so everybody wants to get some, but do not want to earn it the hard way. The ones that have earned the name you will rarely hear about on the net, because they are apparently far less interesting to discuss(!). Go internet.


    I see your point and agree. There are people who will give an art a bad reputation if allowed too. I agree with those who earn and those who don't. Those who don't just want a free ride of the sweat and tears of those who earned it. People should be aware of such people getting a free ride, but in a way that doesn't reflect back on the art. It should be done responsibily. Do you agree?

    I also think if someone like Denora ( who is questioned ) should feel they can refute what is claimed against them. Often I want to here the other guy's side of the story. I get nothing from him being flamed by a buch of immature posters as seen in other threads.

    Mr. Denora isn't a concern to me because I don't travel in those circle. I want to know how important he is, the size of this student body, how much influence does he have in the circles he runs in. I would like to hear what he has to say as much as those who make claims against him. Reason being for the same reason you pick a doctor, contractor, repairman, laywer, etc. I want to know who is the best. All this is part of understanding and appreciating other arts.

    At this point I am waiting for Mr. Denora to respond. At this time I don't want to present my opinion in public nor do I feel any need to bash Mr. Denora. But, like I said before, I do have a concern with the organization of Sokeship. If he isn't what he says he is and it is proven by fact and not gossip or hearsay, then such indiviuals should be exposed.
    Last edited by Jerry Johnson; 12th September 2003 at 02:59.

  10. #40
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    Mr. Johnson,

    I agree completely with your last post.

    Off to shed some sweat and tears (mostly raw feet, actually),
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #41
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    Default Er...

    Originally posted by Jerry Johnson
    <snip>
    I want to know how important he is, the size of this student body, how much influence does he have in the circles he runs in. <snip>
    Unsolicited opinion to follow:

    If it's one person, it's too many. To have these folks running around claiming an art with which they have no legitimate connection, promoting others in it (based on flawed or missing transmission from dubious sources) is self-perpetuating.

    To misquote, "Do what you say, say what you do, and call what you do what it is."

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

  12. #42
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    Originally posted by MarkF


    John Denora accepting his certificate in the World Head of Families Sokeship Council.

    Mark
    Who can possibly question the legitimacy of his rank when he is in the company of such distinguished martial artists!
    Robert Cronin

  13. #43
    john denora Guest

    Default Daito Ryu USA

    Dear Mr.Jerry Johnson,Mark F., Robert Cronin:
    Whatever the posters wish to say about me is fine to a point,unless they cross the line of Defamation. I defend their right to say it,if it is true. And the readers have a right to judge me for themselves. In some respects the criticisms waged against me are correct. At times I have the personality of an old saw blade.
    Mr. Lake does have in part a justifiable gripe, but he knows why he is unjustifiably interfering with me on another point which is unfair as to our dojo on this public network and his conduct on this narrow issue is near the edge of a civil libel and slander lawsuit in California.
    I have a public image so I am fair game. But why is Mr. Lake so much to reaped against me? He had a gripe which was not fair as to someone.
    My suggestion is ask--who benefits from all the trollings,inuendos, misinformation etc thrown at me in the forum by some at times of mud-slinging.
    Say to yourself "Cui Bono"--who benefits? This is latin meaning "Follow the money." as the saying goes.
    Also ask what martial art or sport does the poster do and his/her rank backround and credentials and books etc written ,and medals etc.
    It does ,in part, get to me where most of the readers have been told I give out bogus ranks.This is not true. Part of this is pure gripes and other ways to send out gossip and venom.
    Our Judo ranks come from Nationally Recognized Judo Organizations and are paid for by our students. Judo is not a free lunch. It is very expensive in uniforms, health,finess, blood ,sweat ,and injuries. Even as the examiner I recommend rank. The yudanshkai votes on it from the recommendation of the promotion committee and the record is clear from the SHIAI book and the computer for the wins and loses in competition Shiai or Kata etc.
    The JuJutsu ranks come from recognized organizations with testing requirements such as the American JuJittsu Association of which my dojo is a member.Our dojo,Nichijo Kore Dojo, is a member of JuJitsu America. It has prestigious members such as Professors Willy Cahill, Wally Jay, Eric Remer etc. Our dojo is a member and I am a life member.
    I am a full life Professor of the American Judo and JuJisu Fedearation (AJJF) for many years. We have in the past been awarded the AJJF's largest dojo award and also the Tomdachi award. The quality of my martial art skills may not meet the rigid standards of some of the posters, but so be it.Complain to these associations or get in the kitchen to feel the heat. These are operative facts ascertainable on internet or they can write or call the organizations.
    There are over 12 competing Daito Ryu organizations in Japan. Two groups have been in constant disharmony with each other for politics and money and power--such as stealing students etc. One DR Budo organization has issued a lot of Daito Ryu tapes, bookd , papers,--there are over 100 tapes you can get for $50 to $100. There are some excellent tapes by Saigo School and the Takeda school in Hokkaido which put the DR Budo tapes to shame. This flavor is different because Sokaku Takeda did not always teach the same.DR Budo of Tokyo and sold through Aiki News on internet also charge exhorbitant fees.Japan is very expensive. You ordinarily can usually stay there 90 days. About one third of the people in Japan IAW a survey do not want visitors or tourists. But true (Honto) Daito Ryu is really based on principles.Our teachers teach on the basis of at least 50 principles.See Canada Saigo Ha Daito Ryu Web site which is recognized in Japan, USA and Internationally.This fine group has over 100 principles.Many Kyoju Dairi. Canada has the most Dr in the world.There is also a DR Koryu School in Cuba.If it is Koryu it will have principles and transference.
    My JuJitsu ranks are recognized in Japan, USA and Internationally by Associations. Once Okuden requirements are met rank gets sticky. I am appointed for life as Kyoju Dairi by the late Katsumi Yonezawa. I can never become Menkyo Kaiden. This is the full transmission I do not have the full transmission nor can I afford it. Also I am a Gaijin(America). The Japanese would never and I do not blame them give full transmission to me.Also I am not worthy for full transmission nor do I want the responsibility or burdens in spite of the benefits. My ego for one is not that big.
    I am 73 years old and the bones feel the dampness.
    I own a dogo so I am the teacher and coach and am NOT profit oriented depending on the sport or art taught. We teach Daito Ryu as a Koryu not as budo, because I love to teach.It is my students that count--but if I lose one or more students because of the libels caused by posters and not controled by the owner or moderato E-Budo may have to give me a retraxction or face a Federal Lawsuit for slander regarduing reputation--At this time I am not litigatious minded because I anm going air my view,for I have been silent. This thread against me by two of the others and not Mr. Johnson nor Mark F.nor Mr.Cronin is not right in terms of common decency and a Juudge will see that.. You three posters I see are reasonable men and most perceptive. The others better stop or accept the consequences Each vicious libellous post is helping my cause.They should see what Bob Cunningham got in court from a Defendant.
    Katsuyuki Kondo and his associate business partner Stanley Pranin teach DR as a Budo and to make big money to have those big dojo etc and demonstrations in Las Vegas.The fees are at least $200 and what do the participants get. A chance to purchase Videos and DVD's most of these public Dr techniues a green belt in Judo can do. They are in it in the USA to make money. This year there was a 50% attendence drop from what I was told. Also a lady selling competing DR tapes et was asked to remove them from the table. A friend of mine boughta set and the tapes were better than the Kondo stuff. Soon the Las Vegas IRS will get the hang of it and see how the sparks fly.
    As to Bob Cunningham he is telling the truth I must say I have not met his high expectations and on that film I did have a melt down for a certain reason and this is not an excuse, I apologize to him and his students.Mr. Cunningham's techniques are superb and better than mine. Congratulations on your law suit.
    My students advise me that one of the posters has defaimed me using a nom de plum or fake name to keep his identity and I know why? This is unfair.
    I present to any good person an opportunity to join Daito Ryu USA --that has a purpose to disseminate DR. There are no fees.A membership card is given no strings attached. In the 90's there was a news letter that went to members as a labor of love but we could not afford it--so we cancelled after 2 years.One of my loyal students even egged some of this on without my knowledge just to ferret out some snobs and egotists and gossipers and maligners who like to go on witch hunts. Now, I am no longer fair game on this website and I shall see what can be done especially after I saw what Bob Cunningham did in court as to someone who was harrassing him in public etc. I see the big picture and will not turn my cheek no longer.
    Please pardon me if I appeared to be bragging. This was not my intent. Also to each poster I am sorry and wish to make a public apology. Also my misspellings are due to my haste etc. I am sorry.
    Kindest personal regards.
    John Denora,
    Nichijo Kore Dojo of Judo and JuJutsu

  14. #44
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    Dear Don:

    Just a quick "congratulations" for your success legal battle. I had an opportunity to vist the website and while I must tell you honestly that I do not follow everything completely I have some passing familiarity with the person in question and his "art" and only wish that some comparable "come-uppence" might be meted out to the many misrepresentations that plague the Korean MA. Good going, and my deepest respect for staying the course to its end. FWIW.

    Dear John:

    Perhaps I am no one to speak to the matters at hand. I am a practitioner of Korean traditions and am something of a dunce regarding things Japanese. I can comment only as one whose lifes' work is to teach and do so in a variety of venues. I must share with you, though, that the most valuable asset a teacher has is their station as an unquestioned source of Truth. My experience is that beyond papers, certs, photographes, rankings and affiliations the single greatest validation for such a post is their own inviolate Integrity. Observing what has been said on this string thus far, and speaking as one who has no investment in these issues one way or another, I must say that the frquency with which you find yourself in various areas of suspicion might well give you pause to consider the manner in which you have chosen to conduct your affairs. Individuals reading this string could well be forgiven for shying away from you solely on the basis of what might argueably be poor choices in management.

    If you have truthes you believe are valuable to share with the next generation, well and good. My view is that you might want to reconsider the manner in which you are doing it. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  15. #45
    john denora Guest

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    Dear Bruce W. Sims:
    Thank you for your thougtfullness and sound advice.
    Please contact me at daitoryuaiki@hotmail.com
    I welcome your input and sincere suggestions.
    John Denora,
    Nichijo Kore Dojo

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