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Thread: Daito ryu USA (John Denora)

  1. #46
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    Default AJJF ranks

    Originally posted by john denora
    I am a full life Professor of the American Judo and JuJisu Fedearation (AJJF) for many years. We have in the past been awarded the AJJF's largest dojo award and also the Tomdachi award.
    I feel I must clarify something here.

    Mr. Denora is not, and has never been, a Professor of the AJJF.

    That rank is only awarded after many years of dedication to Danzan Ryu. Mr. Denora has never studied DZR to any appreciable extent, although he has sometimes attended or participated in events where DZR instructors taught or demonstrated the art.

    Some years ago, the AJJF instituted an "outreach" program in an attempt to propagate DZR by recruiting isolated or unaffiliated dojo and offering them group insurance and an opportunity to study DZR under traveling clinicians (usually AJJF Professors). The program seems to have been quite successful, and has attracted a number of schools in Europe, South & Central America, and the Middle-East who now practice DZR. These groups are called Allied Schools, and their pre-existing ranks are registered initially with the AJJF as Allied Ranks (assuming they present acceptable documentation). As their DZR instruction progresses, they are eligible to test for regular AJJF rank if they choose.

    An Allied Rank certificate cites the name of the organization that granted the rank--it does not suggest that the pre-existing rank was in any way awarded by the AJJF.

    Some years ago, Mr. Denora's club joined the AJJF as an Allied School. He has so far not pursued the opportunity to study Danzan Ryu, and his participation in the AJJF has mainly been limited to occasional attendance at seminars and conventions. He was also kind enough to allow Professor Hudson the use of his school facilities for the AJJF Massage Program at one time.

    I've never heard of the "Tomodachi Award" in the AJJF, but I've only been a member for a couple of decades.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  2. #47
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    Lightbulb

    Dear Brian:

    For one, thanks for that clarification. That must have been a bit painful for you to find yourself writing. I, for my part, am going to bow-out of this discussion as we have WAY too much of this stuff in the Hapkido arts as it is and this is just a bit too painful for me to witness. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  3. #48
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    Default Re: Daito Ryu USA

    Originally posted by john denora
    I can never become Menkyo Kaiden. This is the full transmission I do not have the full transmission nor can I afford it. Also I am a Gaijin(America). The Japanese would never and I do not blame them give full transmission to me.
    It's neither here nor there, but I can think of at least three non-Japanese off of the top of my head that have received menkyo kaiden in various arts - I'm sure that there are others.

    I'll leave the other stuff to somebody else .

    Best,

    Chris

  4. #49
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    Default Saigo-ha Canada - Daito ryu capitol

    To all,

    I'd be interested to know if there is someone using a fake name on this board. We have an "honor system" policy of using your real name here, for reasons of accountability. If someone would care to forward information about this, or come clean, I'd appreciate it. BTW, coming clean will likely produce better results than waiting to get busted by someone else.

    FWIW, I don't see anything legally objectionable in this thread. If you want to get offended or defamed, go to most of the other internet sites that do not try as hard to maintain mature contributions. Sue the whole internet. This subject is controversial by way of the information being presented, but little has been said about the character of Mr. Denora, and what has been said have been opinions based on either personal experience or on what has been posted here, which Mr. Denora has not specifically noted (or supplied supporting evidence) as being incorrect.

    I tell you what though. Martial arts sure is different these days. Modern martial arts should include litigation-dori to their curriculum. Most people train casually as a hobby these days anyway, and when called out for behavior and judgement issues, lawsuits are the weapon of choise. No need to answer hard questions or produce supporting data to your claims. Interesting "hobby" for some, but not for me.

    I would remind ya'll to try to keep your posts appropriate though, in light of the intriguing posts of late.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #50
    john denora Guest

    Default Re: Daito Ryu USA

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Li
    [B]It's neither here nor there, but I can think of at least three non-Japanese off of the top of my head that have received menkyo kaiden in various arts - I'm sure that there are others.
    ---------------
    Dear Mr.Chris Li:
    Thank you for your gracious input off the top of your head as to the number of Menkyo Kaiden given to persons outside of Japan. I do not wish to be argumentative or rude. If I sound so please forgive me Mr. Chris Li.
    There are as you correctly say ,in part,some Menkyo Kaiden in such arts as sword and maybe in Hakko Ryu etc in the USA --including perhaps Hawaii. I do not know their names.If you do please let me know.
    It is my impression there may be a Daito School-- Menkyo Kaiden in Canada. I do not think he is an American. There is one American who someday may get the full transmission from a Japanese Daito School, but it is not me.
    I stand corrected. I am terribly sorry. It was my mistake and not intentioned to mislead in any way.I should have said: "I will never become a Menkyo Kaiden, that is,full transmission in any Daito School from Japan because I am not worthy."
    The reason is I do not want to be nailed down with more rank nor full transmision such as Menkyo Kaiden from a Japanes Daito School.
    I no longer wish to be affiliated with any Japanese Daito School at this time and since my teacher Kasumi Yonezawa died.My teacher Kasumi Yonezawa was the first to cause his Daito School to flourish in the USA after Daito had dwindled in the USA after 1900. I am content to teach Daito the way Katsumi Yonezawa Sensei taught me since 1979 until his death based on principles and according to the three Horikawa Kodo Confidential books of instuction and techniques he taught and transmitted to me.
    Best,
    John Denora

    Dear Brian Griffth:
    It hurts me to say this.
    AJJF supposedly promotes Danzan Ryu and Okazaki Massage (150 hours) that encorporates physical and mental training with a philosophy toward perfection of character.
    No! I will not seek or test for any rank in the Danzan Ryu style of AJJF.I am fed up with a few back stabbers in AJJF who are infatuated with their ego trips. One of whom posted miss-information on this post about me and a lie and has been for 15 years+ a trouble maker at Danzan Ryu camps.One of these persons is YOU.At one of the six annual summer,week-end Danzan Ryu Camps a few years ago for--Camp Kakua in Los Angeles CA--a real Danzan Ryu Camp at which Sensei Mike Dingman sponsored and present was Prof. Manley Fox --one of the finest and other Danzan Ryu pratitioners and others. You , Brian Griffith, embarrassed some of my students. They said you were a AJJF know-it-all and now I believe them. Some and myself found you to be obnoxious and an officious intermeddler.. But I remained polite to you in spite of all your haughty comments.
    Therafter,I still continued to support AJJF because of Mr. Bob Hudson and other AJJF teachers such as Mr. Ball who is a fine brother--.
    I assisted Professors Hudson and Ball and another to the use my facilities.In more places than one.We were presented the largest Dojo award in the form of a plaque on behalf of AJJF to me and my sudents.You were not there. Mr. Hudson,and others were there.It was given on a date after I freely allowed AJJF the FREE use of our Dojo.
    AJJF used my Dojo every Tuesday and Thursday nights and all week-ends --totalling more than 150 hours for the Okazaki Certificate Program. I attended every session, even when I was injured. I did not accept one penny nor did AJJF offer a dime.My dojo mats were also used for training by AJJF students.Nor did or do I want an Okazaki Massage Certificate. You were not there.So you are speaking pure unaduterated hearsay, ***Last night I took the AJJF awards down*** because of your nonsense on this Net.You are an representative agent of AJJF --for you malicious post hereon AJJF needs to apologize to me. Are you the official spokesman for AJJF? If so you are biased and a liar. I may photo it, wrap it up and send it back to AJJF Headquarters explaining in detail your connivances.. My Lifetime Professor Card from AJJF edged in black says it all. Not your mouth and forked tongue.You should be reprimanded or prosecuted by AJJF and ousted according to their Constitution and By-laws.As a non-profit organization you have breached the spirit of the law.See your AJJF Handbook.
    There are many Danzan Ryu practitioners and schools not affiliated with AJJF.
    It hurts me to say this.
    I am a full Professor AFFILIATED in AJJF just as you claimed. You do not know what Danzan Ryu I know or do not know.Thrashing me will not get you the high profile you desire. Because of you,et.al.,my students do not want AJJF Danzan Ryu rank and have voted not to remain in AJJF. Because of you AJJF will no longer make a profit off of our Dojo or our students.Instead they have elected and opted for other Danzan Ryu organizations that at least have teachers of character and integrity. Some of which are of the original Danzan Ryu before--the AJJF was ever formed --These are under the able leadership of fine Professors. I was in Hawaii three years with the US Marine Corps and know true Danzan Ryu and the Danzan Ryu history and what happened at and after the death of Okazaki Sensei on the Waikiki Beach before you were in Danzan Ryu.
    Prof. Wally Jay, a man of absolute integrity- I would believe before I would believe you.
    Now go dig up more innuendos and untruths and also get your higher officials of AJJF to malign me.
    You think you do but you know little of my abilities or skills in Daito.
    Nor does it matter to me or to anyone except those entitled to know.My credentials need not be aired by you because AJJF is the custodian therof.
    If viewers want to see my credentials they can write to AJJF.
    Enjoy the Santa Barbara fresh air but please get your operative facts straight.Your cronies alredy are starting to pop up to incite more junk.
    If a potential student wants to study JuJitsu --fine . We will not feed their fancies in any way to injure them or take their hard earned money. We look for a few good people who are honest with integrity that do not bash others like you do and did and I am told you still do.
    Cheers,
    John Denora

    To all viewers:
    WEB SITE--My web site did not meet the expectations of a few viewers. The site was not to my liking either. The web master put in flash,put in things backwards, tough to load etc All the criticisms were true.The web master was a benevolent dictator -and I had to take it in stride and not offend him. So I cancelled the site.
    I do not think it was in competition with anyone other than some egotistical snobs who knew how to criticize. I felt it was gaudy and it did make for bad bashings.
    Japan told me it was in bad taste because it was in my name, so I finally accepted the loss and stopped the site.I must say all the critics had the same criticisms I had. The only thing that was nice was the music in my opinion and in the view of some others.
    It has been very painful for me to air out the linen of Daito Ryu.
    Hapkido has by far less problems than Daito Ryu. Most Daito persons have remined silent for fear of repercussions from Japan.
    I am no longer nailed down to Japan. My teacher--Kasumi Yonezawa is dead. Only he knows what waza he taught me.Most of my students who started with me and who knew how to speak and read Japanese are doing very well in their Daito Schools and niches. I am proud of them all.I pray they do well in Japan and here. May their dojo flourish. I
    only want that Daito shall not die and it be disseminated in the USA and the world as my teacher wanted it to be. My teacher made enemies and I know who they are. Some maligned him also with lies. I pray for them also.Most of the maligners and their teachers who allowed it have surfaced that started the witch hunt.
    PROMOTIONS-- I can promote in the Daito School because I have my techer's authorization on paper and on wood.Yes it was expensive--in many ways.
    When I get calls to learn Daito Ryu I try to accomodate the callers. Most callers I refer to other Daito Schools in the USA or Japan or Canada because they do not have the time , money or where with all to go to Japan.
    My students in a republican and democratic atmosphere at our dojo and our meetings are free to speak and voice their opinion.We also vote on all internal and external matters without fear or retribution.We are not authoritative and have no need to get rich. We try not to be an officious boot camp DI to the dojo students. It is not a boot camp.It is a place of training that starts with etiquette and ends with etiquette.
    We have only of a small dojo. If you want to flake it or me, be ready if it is of your own free will and acord..

    In the past I was at times in our dojo and in seminars too pain giving.NO MORE.
    I am terribly sorry and regret anything I may have done to offend anyone on this net,except those that lied and do not know the protocal of promotions and rank. They got so flustered over a valid promotion and Mr. Williams told it as it really is. See his very erudite post.The person promoted was tested and had many years of experience in Japanese JuJitsu before he came to America. His aiki and Aikido skills were superb. Several posts castigating this gentleman's promotion come from an alcoholic who causes trouble if he can. The person promoted had been under consideration to establish a Daito school in NYC, but smoke screens were raised by three competing Daito Schools in the big apple area against him.It worked he was ousted and refused entrance to public Japanese Daito Seminars.
    He was given a tested promotion.He passed a full day's rigourous testing. He offended three Japanese sensei and several Americans but he was able and fitted for the promotion. One of the Japanese Sensei himself had been skipped promoted in the past.Also, Mr. Stanley Pranin made a fuss.
    Mr. Pranin in the early days had been at our house. He planned at that time to make money off of Daito Ryu. He told me so at our house with his Japanese girlfriend. He went to see my teacher Katsumi Yonezawa under the guize to do a life story. My teacher saw right off the bat what the scheme was. My teacher would have nothing to do with it other than answer questions for the article written about my teacher in Aikido Journal. The article was a miss not well done. Then the Pranin gang started its quest for control.OSensei Ueshiba had died--the Aikido tape, Aikido Journal and translation business was dwindling . So he got on the coat tails of Sensei Katsuyuki Kondo.Pranin is and always will be a book and tape seller and I now know him well. He is high ranked in Aikido but just look on Daito Ryu tapes (First Friendship Daito Demo--Tokyo)and see how he does Ukemi worse than a yellow belt. This demo he sponsored and was the jump off point for him. It is because of Tokimune Takeda's Alzheimer Disease that the Pranin gang struck to control Daito Ryu. They have lost control and feared me. I was the wrong one to fear. It has escalated from the fact that true Daito Ryu is easy to learn if you know Judo or JuJitsu or Aikido.Go to a Las Vegas Daito school seminar and see for yourself.. Also there are now about 100 tapes and many books --mostly Pranins which are not the best. Any Kinokuniya Books Sales person will tell about them and are mostly in Japanese. VEY EXOENSIVE.
    Truly search the history of aikido and seek the true answer why OSensei Ueshiba ran away from Daito Ryu School.Daito Ryu has more intrigues than Hapkido.It has been so for many years. It is guarded like a National Treasure.
    OSensei's excuse to run away was his father died and he had to go to the funeral. Never to return to Daito Ryu. It was because of such petty arguments ,egos, intercine warfare at Osaka and at Hokkaido and money for each technique etc etc Techniques are not as big a secret as the Tokyo School of Daito would lead you to believe.Okamoto Sensei has proven how the system works. The esoteric ideation is to fool the public, keep it a National Treasure and "nail everybody down" under one person.It worked for a while,but no more. Daito Schools are a dime a dozen just like Mac Donalds but no longer a monopoly. The monopoly has been broken my friends. See for yourselves,even if you are told do not believe Mr. Denora.I am not rich but I am now well known --for good or bad or worse. Soon I will pass away and Daito Schools will still be able to do their thing now in the US.
    I will no longer stand by and be hunted down like a witch or should I say warlock on this so-called Budo board.
    I have put my faith and trust in God, my country,my family,and my loyal students. I am proud of those students who remained with me. Those that left I wish them the best.
    Happy Thanksgiving,
    John Denora.

  6. #51
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    Default Re: Re: Daito Ryu USA

    Originally posted by john denora
    I will not seek or test for any rank in the Danzan Ryu style of AJJF.

    I...allowed AJJF the FREE use of our Dojo...for the Okazaki Certificate Program.

    I am a full Professor AFFILIATED in AJJF just as you claimed.
    Thank you for clarifying that.

    There seems to have been something about my post that you object to, but I can't tell what it is since you agree that my assertion is true. The certificate you received as part of the Allied School program recognizes your rank as Professor of Daito Ryu, based on whatever rank documentation you provided. The AJJF did not promote you to that rank. That was my point.

    I don't recall your students at Camp Kokua, but it is not my habit or intent to cause people public embarrassment. To the extent that whatever I did may have been wrong or impolite, I certainly apologize.

    On the other hand, a little embarrassment can sometimes be a good thing. Some people fall into the trap of pretending to be something they aren't, or to know something they don't. A sense of embarrassment might be the beginning step toward facing reality and dropping the pretense. In that sense, it's a hopeful sign.

    I'm sorry your students felt embarrassed, but I'm happy they're still capable of feeling that emotion, for it signifies that they still possess a functioning sense of shame.

    Not everyone is so lucky.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  7. #52
    john denora Guest

    Default Daito Ryu USA

    Dear Mr. Brian P. Griffith:
    In all due respect I do not personally find FAULT in you as a person.
    It seemed to me you distorted several things.I felt betrayed by a fellow member of AJJF making some complaint to impinge on me with petty piques and innuendos. I felt like an outcast without any rights and privileges in our AJJF.All these years in your humble eyes I was a second class member. Is that what allied means? AJJF should be allied to our Daito School. At least our Daito USA schools would not caste stones on a allied member unless it was aired properly. It felt me pain to respond. -- Now I understand.
    I and others have found inherent faults in me and some of my past doings--I am not that rightious a man and I must reconcile or bear these past faults till I die.
    My enemy is my own ANGER and PET PEEVES. So,I am training and practicing diligently on my ANGER MANAGEMENT to irradicate these faults in a Christian WAY.
    For a more detailed clarification I did receive a CERTIFICATE as you succinctly stated. But,I also got years ago a LIFE MEMBERSHP card from AJJF encircled in black print etc.Do you know when these were issued to me? Speciffically,these do allude to me as you say Professor of a USA Daito School--ALLIED.I am no longer a Professor nor Sensei of a Japanese Daito School.I do not now teach the Japanese Way. My teaching follows the principles and items of the catalogs that Kasumi Yonezawa taught me.The nomenclature is Japanese just like in Judo and Danzan. The JuJitsu is taught his WAY and my WAY specifically to the best of my ability.The spirit is Daito Koryu not Gendai like the Danzan schools.The Aiki is taught according to his 50 principles as taught me and the AIKI -no -Jutsu is DONE my way and each student is free to do AIKI- no- Jutsu his/her WAY. Further, the AikiJuJitsu ranks issued to my students were under my USA Daito Aiki JuJitsu status and the agency status granted me as having been granted to me by Yonezawasan .Certain Judo and Jujitsu ranks are issued to my students by Nationally Approved organizations.My students are examined and tested under the rules of our organization and/or a Nationally Approved Judo or JuJitsu organization or a JuJitsu branch of a Nationally Approved Judo organization. A few have Judo rank from the US Judo Federation or the Kodokan Institute, Tokyo ,Japan.
    Your American Judo and Jujitsu Federation (AJJF)to which I (me)am an allied member is not I believe ,in truth and fact, a Nationally Approved Judo organization. So we did not test through AJJF.If your organization is approved by the National Governing Board or a US Board approved under Congressional law-in Judo(US Statutes-Congress) or other JuJitsu National Board please send me or publish the approval letter/document.
    By implication we want to make sure the readers of this post get the true state of facts and your oficial status and not mere fly by night opinions from which you assert.Are you an official officer of AJJF authorized to state the things you posted in public about me. I know as a public figure you are not invading my privacy,but I really fail to see why you jumped in. If it was to clarify these things fine. My Daito USA school since 1996 has been a continuous member of National Sport Judo and its JuJitsu Branch. This National Organization ,NSJ,has many Dojo/Clubs with prominant members of the Judo and JuJitsu community on the Board of Directors. It has examiner rules and regulations and enters Sanctioned Events.My dojo members follow these rules to maintain our integrity It comes under the National Governing Board for all approved sanctioned events etc.
    AJJF does not ,and correct me ,if I am wrong have sanctioned events from NJB or another National Judo or JuJitsu Organization. In my prior post I did not allude to the solo status of AJJF which is only one Danzan Ryu organization. AJJF is only a non-profit corporation for itself as shown on Internet www.ajjf.com and as you said with out reach programs to expand AJJF's territory and other purposes. None of your AJJF events are National Approved sanctioned events in Judo or Jujitsu.Nor are the ranks given by a Nationally Approved organization. Your AJJF is TOTALLY independent.
    I have for a long time done and studied the curriculum of techniques of Danzan Ryu which is a combination system with techniques from different sources such as Yoshin Ryu etc and whatever Okazaki Sensei wanted to put in the catalog of techniques such as revival etc. Some of the Scroll revivals are totally wrong and could be hazardous. Our organization requires the CPR and First Course approved by the Red Cross etc.for all Shodan and Coaches with renewal every 2 years. Since 1958 when I was with the US Marines in Kaneohe Bay, Oahu, Hawaii I started have done the Catalog of Danzan Ryu with senior Danzan persons of Danzan Ryu.Any Shodan/Nidan of Judo or Brazilian JuJitsu or Daito Ryu, Miyama Ryu and of any other well founded school worth his salt could do any Waza of the Danzan School.My three best fighters could do any of the Danzan techniques and pretzels to boot.We invite anyone who signs a waiver to get on the mats with us who seeks to learn or workout with us.We enter Judo and JuJitsu tournaments. I for one can no longer compete. I have seen my day. So I coach to the best of my ability when I am not in pain.
    Relative to the Okazaki Massage Program of AJJF one needs special training ,but the way it is taught it has flaws.I know for a fact for I was a percipient witness of the massage classes taught on my site under the purview of Mr. Bob Hudson in the 90's at my Nichijo Kore Dojo then on "K" Street San Diego,CA. A graduate therof still needs to take a governmental licensing test and be licensed under the appropriate law in California at least and some other jurisdictions have similar massage laws.This is a police function of the locality for obvious reasons.
    Thank you.


    Gassho,
    John Denora
    Nichijo Kore Dojo
    Last edited by john denora; 26th November 2003 at 13:00.

  8. #53
    Mike B. Johnson Guest

    Default

    Mr Denora,

    I guess I have struggled through this painful tome out of some bizarre sense of masochism. Frankly I have not read such a conglomeration of befuddlement to date on e-budo, although others including Beetlejuice have made valiant attempts.

    The following is priceless:

    ** My enemy is my own ANGER and PET PEEVES. So,I am training and practicing diligently on my ANGER MANAGEMENT to irradicate these faults in a Christian WAY. **

    I must confess to being concerned that your version of eradicating your faults in a "Christian Way" might include somthing akin to a burning Mr Nathan Scott on a spit.

    And I'm truely sorry but the mental image of you hitting those caps on the keyboard almost sent me to the floor in laughter.

    So Mr Denora, take a valium or something. You have demonstrated for us all what the study of Daito ryu under Yonezawa has done for your psyche. Have you considered taking up the study of yoga?

    BJ

  9. #54
    john denora Guest

    Default

    Dear Mike B. Johnson:
    Thank you for your sage advice.I am not finding that much fault with him.
    He has been most objective. Also thanks a million Mike for the YOGA tip I could certainly use a good Yoga teacher.This teacher might help me loosen up.
    Japanese Daito Schools almost killed me and now Judo is making my knees do double takes. You are 100% correct Yoga would be great. I will hit the yellow pages and give it a shot.Yoga would certainly help anger management and those pet peeves etc.better than booze or valium.
    I am so happy you had a good laugh.
    Did you know Katsumi Yonezawa Sensei? If you think Yonezawa had that much impact on my psyche,you should get on the mats in the Daito School of Ken Kiyamasan of San Luis Obispo,CA or with Sensei Roy Golberg of NYC for one or more days or evenings and see what those two grass cutters will do to your psyche and your physical pain will be excruciating whenever you grab them.Be sure to tap out fast and loud before you get a concussion.Also, practise up on your Ukemi well before. If they are too soft for you try Obatsan. I guarantee they would be most sado-masochistic on your funny side, hide,skin,bones and brain.I still have not recovered from the pain Kiyama and Goldberg imposed on me in yesteryears. Get yourself some pain killers before you get on the mats with these two Daito School dudes.
    Did you know there are some statistics,I do not know how reliable they are,that say one out of every four people have a mental illness?
    Do you have three friends that are sane? I'm only kidding. Just a little.
    I do not intend to burn him at the stake nor at the spit.He is a nice guy.So,you are a nice guy too.I can tell.Your mental image of me hitting the ivories on my antiquated keyboard struck me also as being worth a good belly laugh too.
    If you could see a video of me doing the two finger "hunt and peck" on this old decrepit computer you would probably roll over dead from laughter.Notice the multitude of typos and errors.There should be a book on the "Zen Way of Typing".But it should be spelled with a small z.
    Oh well surely have a keen sense of humor.
    By the way who is beetle juice any way? I am a new comer to E-Budo. TIME OUT.
    Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
    Thanks.
    Gassho,
    John Denora

  10. #55
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    Default

    God I'm glad I train on the West Coast...

    And that's all I'm going to say.

    Happy Turkey Day everybody.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  11. #56
    john denora Guest

    Post

    Mike B.J.:
    Kindly visit the web page below:
    www.stevesstudio.net
    Seeee-Does it look familiar?
    I am still giggling from your last post.
    Happy Turkey Day.
    Cheers.
    Gassho,

  12. #57
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    Default The turkey thread

    The only way anyone is getting me "on a spit" is going to be after a few bottles of Sake (and bring a big spit).

    This has been a truly fascinating and enlightening thread. I would offer the following though: a Hiden Mokuroku is not a teaching license in DR, and a teaching license (Jun-Dairi, Kyoju Dairi) is only valid while the holder is training and affiliated with the issuer - unless you have received full transmission (Menkyo Kaiden). Yonezawa Katsumi is no longer a representative of the Kodokai, and additionally, has since passed away.

    Yonezawa independently issued a number of Hiden Mokuroku, Dan rankings, and Jun-Dairi licenses during the 70's and 80's. For qualification of such issuances, see the following thread:

    Yonezawa Katsumi (DR Bokuyokan)/ Tim Tung

    As far as getting injured in training, quite frankly, I've heard a number of stories about Mr. Yonezawa injuring students (by former students). However, this should not be viewed as SOP for Daito ryu, or martial arts in general. Having been a long time personal student of Obata Toshishiro Sensei (referenced previously as being strong handed), I can tell you that he performs techniques at a level that is just below the failure point (slightly below injury). However, he has excellent control, , which comes from years of intensive study under qualified instruction, and he also teaches strong ukemi skills to his students. As such, we do not get injured, regardless of the "realism" of his training methods.

    Likewise, I know a number of people in Daito ryu these days, in virtually all major branches, which includes some Kodokai members. Some of them train under Ken (Hayawo) Kiyama Shihan, as well as Roy Goldberg in New York. It is unanimously agreed that the kind of pain you feel under these gentlemen is a different kind of "severe discomfort" (not sure if pain is the correct word), whichis different than the arm-breaking/concussion pain issued out by some teachers. You may have sore wrists after training in some cases, but you shouldn't have serious injuries from regular training sessions.

    Jacking someone up in self-defense (joint/bone breaking, percussion, etc. if necessary) is one thing, but there is nothing tough or cool about jacking up fellow students during training, and I wouldn't want such an impression to be assumed of qualified and skilled instructors.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 26th November 2003 at 21:06.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    At what point may someone use the name "Daito-ryu?"
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    Hi John,

    I think the "rule" is basically the same for any privately held art.

    Specifically, your asking at what point/level is it o.k. for a student to split from their teacher to form their own art (based on the same teachings) or to form their own branch of the art. The easy answer is someone who has either been given permission to do so by the head of the art, or, someone who has been issued full transmission by the head of the art - or preferably, both.

    When it gets cloudy is when someone has not been issued full transmission, or has not received permission. Then other factors, such as training history, technical knowledge and ability, and level of ranks/license gained become considerations. Also, to a lesser degree, things like the persons character, contributions to the art, political reasons for leaving, social/professional status, "articles of inheritance" (stuff) can be factored in.

    To put it simply, anyone who has not been given permission or issued full transmission will always be "illegitimate" to some degree, in the most technical sense, in regards to the transmission of the mainline art. It is the above considerations and factors that will determine how warmly embraced a person splitting off will be by their peers and those remaining in the more orthodox line(s). It is a grey area.

    The situation with TSKSR, Sugino and Sugawara is a good example of this. Sugawara trained for some time, but was kicked out of the mainline. Sugino was given permission to teach outside the mainline by the previous headmaster, and was also a very good technican.

    In Daito ryu, Sokaku issued Menkyo Kaiden to Takuma Hisa (Takumakai), Tonedate (who doesn't have a surviving line), and to Horikawa Kodo (Kodokai) either directly or through by his successor Tokimune, depending o your point of view. Tokimune appears to have legitimately succeeded Sokaku, and issued Menkyo Kaiden to Kondo Katsuyuki (mainline). Sagawa Yukiyoshi did not receive Menkyo Kaiden, but did recieve the highest densho being issued at that time, and was also teaching independently while his teacher was still alive (in other words, with his knowledge). Sagawa also may have trained the longest/most with Sokaku, and was one of his most skilled students. As such, a strong case could be made for his line of the art as well. So in the most technical sense, you have the mainline, Takumakai, and Kodokai who have air-tight legitimacy to orthodox Daito ryu, as well as probably the Sagawa dojo (4 lines).

    The other branches will be accepted as "legitimate" to varying degrees (some almost fully, others not at all). But someone who was issued a Shodan in Daito ryu who tries to use the name for their own art (without significantly changing or appending the name) is not going to win over many of their colleagues!

    Also, the current headmaster of the art may decide to rescind permission to use their arts name, even if it was permitted before by a previous headmaster. Such a decision may not always be respected by their peers, but they would technically have the authority to do so.

    And for the record, anyone who issues their own ranks/densho/licenses is an independent art/branch. For example, I know that Okamoto Sensei from the Roppokai considers (or considered) his line to be a branch of Horikawa Kodo's teachings. However, there is a mainline (Kodokai) of which Horikawa Kodo's teachings are being transmitted. Since Okamoto Sensei issues his own ranks/densho/licenses, as the Roppokai "Soshi", he is definitely teaching as an independent branch/art.

    Of course, in the old days, legitimacy was largely decided by comparing "physical skills" (shinken shobu, taryu jiai), but as you know, things are just a little different these days.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 26th November 2003 at 21:57.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Originally posted by john denora
    Did you know Katsumi Yonezawa Sensei? If you think Yonezawa had that much impact on my psyche,you should get on the mats in the Daito School of Ken Kiyamasan of San Luis Obispo,CA or with Sensei Roy Golberg of NYC for one or more days or evenings and see what those two grass cutters will do to your psyche and your physical pain will be excruciating whenever you grab them.Be sure to tap out fast and loud before you get a concussion.Also, practise up on your Ukemi well before. If they are too soft for you try Obatsan. I guarantee they would be most sado-masochistic on your funny side, hide,skin,bones and brain.I still have not recovered from the pain Kiyama and Goldberg imposed on me in yesteryears. Get yourself some pain killers before you get on the mats with these two Daito School dudes.
    Although I have refrained from comment up to this point, the picture painted by remarks above is at such extreme variance from my personal experience that I can't really let them stand unchallenged.

    For better or for worse, I missed Yonezawa Sensei when he came through NYC in the late eighties. Several people, both jujutsuka and aikidoka, who did attend classes he taught in a small dojo on St. Marks Place subsequently spoke very well of Kiyama-Sensei, who was serving as Yonezawa Sensei's otomo on that trip. Suffice it to say that their views regarding Yonezawa Sensei, both on a technical and a personal level, were rather less flattering.

    Subsequently, it was my good fortune to study with Goldberg Sensei for the better part of a year, during which time Kiyama Sensei and a number of his students visited at least twice. At no time during that period was I subjected to excruciating physical pain or anything approaching a concussion, although both Goldberg Sensei and Kiyama Sensei had considerable skill in quickly connecting with uke's center and taking uke's balance. As Mr. Scott says of Obata Sensei, both had "excellent control" and were careful in their use of my body, for which I am thankful. On and off the mat, both conducted themselves as gentleman, with genuine consideration for those around them. Perhaps I should also thank my early teachers at UC-Santa Cruz, North Bay Aikido, and Bond Street Dojo, all of whom emphasized a fairly fluid and responsive approach to ukemi, for giving me an appropriate skill set that has enabled me to visit a wide variety of dojo through the years without untoward damage.

    To be fair, I did see a few individuals who, in training with each other and in training with Goldberg Sensei, attempted to engage in what are often disparaged within aikido circles as "contests of strength." The results appeared to be fairly painful, though it was a mystery to me how many administrations of the lesson were necessary before it sank in.

    It was also the case that in regular practice, Goldberg Sensei placed strong emphasis on learning appropriate ukemi prior to attempting (to give or receive) techniques requiring same. On one occasion, I saw a senior practitioner ignore specific cautions along those lines and injure a junior; it is my understanding that following this event, the offending individual was advised that his presence was no longer welcome. Certainly, I never saw him enter the dojo again.

    It is now many years since I have trained or spoken with Goldberg Sensei. I do not have any current affiliation with him or the organization he represents, speak for no one but myself in this matter, and have no interest beyond my concern that an individual who once showed me the kindness of doing his best to teach me what he knew is being unfairly maligned.

    Of course, Mr. Denora has a right to characterize his experience in any way he wishes.

    It is my experience that those who seek pain generally find it and those who make great claims generally find someone to challenge those claims, either more or less immediately.

    Fred Little

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