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Thread: Seisan Sho & Dai?

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    Default Seisan Sho & Dai?

    Ok, now that I have had a chance to breath, I was looking at
    different clips of Seisan. Like Passai, Kusanku and in some cases Gojushiho,
    I noticed there were two distinct versions. One originating from Naha,
    and the other which looks like a Tomari version. Knowing that there are a lot
    of kata collectors out there, why haven't these become known as a sho and
    dai version? Should they be known as Naha and Tomari Seisan? I know
    Matsumura practiced Seisan. I also know that Chibana did not have this
    as part of his syllabus. Could this be because with the practice of the
    Pinans, Seisan became redundant?

    Thoughts?
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    'I know Matsumura practiced Seisan.'

    Ray, im sure he did, could I ask what you base that opinion on?
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

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    I can not remember the source. I will try to look it up.
    I had an aquaintence from the Matusumura Seito Hozonkai
    confirm it for me though.
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    I think the main reason their not classified as Sho & Dai versions is the fact that their from different lineages, & practiced in different systems. Most Ryu-Ha dont train more then one version of the kata, so there would be no need to classify it as such.
    Also, there are more then two different versions of this kata, so thats another reason you couldnt classify them as such.
    You can find the Kyudokan version here: http://www.okinawakaratedo.com/OKD/Multi-media.htm
    Which is entirely different from the Goju version here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjddaBWugLs
    Which is different from the Kyan version, trained in organizations like the Seibukan, which you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFSnV7s_5i0 , Which is a different Kata then the Uechi version posted here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2yrJvir_kM

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    Pat McCarthy's book, 'Classical Kata', states that sesan was the first kata taught in Shuri-te by Itosu.This prior to the introduction of Pinan. And I believe Harry Cook or Graham Noble made the Matusmura and Itosu claim in the old 'Fighting Arts' magazine.-Andy
    If you believe in an ideal,you don't own it,it owns you.
    -Raymond Chandler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shoshinkan View Post
    'I know Matsumura practiced Seisan.'

    Ray, im sure he did, could I ask what you base that opinion on?
    "Oral tradition, rather documentation, purports that among those supposedly used by Matsumura were the Passai, Kushanku, Useishi, Naifanchi, Chinto, Seisan, Gojushiho, Channan, and Hakutsuru - John Sell, "Unante", - p.31

    Hohan Soken told me that Nabe Matsumura taught him the katas: Naihanchin Shodan, Naihanchin Nidan, Naihanchin Sandan, Pinan Shodan, Pinan Nidan, Passai Sho, Passai Dai, Chinto, Kusanku, Gojushiho, Sesan, Rohai Jo, Rohai Chu, Rohai, Ge, and finally, at the age of 23 Hakutsuru (White Crane). Nabe is supposed to have leanred all of these katas from his grandfather, Sokon Matsumura... - Mark Bishop, "Okinawan karate", - p.57
    Tony Urena

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    Quote Originally Posted by andy.m View Post
    Pat McCarthy's book, 'Classical Kata', states that sesan was the first kata taught in Shuri-te by Itosu.This prior to the introduction of Pinan. And I believe Harry Cook or Graham Noble made the Matusmura and Itosu claim in the old 'Fighting Arts' magazine.-Andy
    If that is so, then why isn't there a "Itosu Seisan"? If I remember correctly, most (if not all) Shorin ryu of Itosu lineage don't have Seisan at all
    Timo Saksholm

    Shorin ryu Seibukan karate
    Jinbukan kobudo

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    But it is found in both the Shotokan and Wado syllabuses as part of Funakoshi's original 15 kata. Funakoshi got it from somewhere. From Mabuni, on the Higashionna line? From Azato? Or from Itso, either directly or from Mabuni?
    Andrew Smallacombe

    Aikido Kenshinkai

    JKA Tokorozawa

    Now trotting over a bridge near you!

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    thankyou good people, I like this discussion re seisan.

    my personal beleif now, based on all the bits and bobs I have read and been told is that Matsumura most certainly did have Seisan, Soken Sensei simply did not include it in his system (it is not mentioned in the Estrada interview), Seito Matsumura (my personal belief is that he would have classified it a NahaTe led kata, extended from Sanchin - re Uechi and Goju Ryu).
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

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    Quote Originally Posted by shoshinkan View Post
    my personal beleif now, based on all the bits and bobs I have read and been told is that Matsumura most certainly did have Seisan
    I agree, Matsumura almost certainly had Seisan

    Soken Sensei simply did not include it in his system (it is not mentioned in the Estrada interview)
    Which is very curious if he indeed was taught by Matsumura's grandson, as he claimed.

    (my personal belief is that he would have classified it a NahaTe led kata, extended from Sanchin - re Uechi and Goju Ryu).
    Another reason I have heard is that Soken was actually Chibana's student (and from what I've heard, at least some of Chibana's senior students hold this view)
    Timo Saksholm

    Shorin ryu Seibukan karate
    Jinbukan kobudo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew S View Post
    Funakoshi got it from somewhere. From Mabuni, on the Higashionna line? From Azato? Or from Itso, either directly or from Mabuni?
    My guess is from Azato. Azato, was after all, the "heir" to Matsumura's karate.
    Timo Saksholm

    Shorin ryu Seibukan karate
    Jinbukan kobudo

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimoS View Post
    If that is so, then why isn't there a "Itosu Seisan"? If I remember correctly, most (if not all) Shorin ryu of Itosu lineage don't have Seisan at all
    Correct. I know we don't.
    Tony Urena

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    If you look at the Kyudokan version posted on the Shinjinbukan site above, it's very similar to the Wado version. Perhaps this was the Itosu version?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TimoS View Post
    I agree, Matsumura almost certainly had Seisan



    Which is very curious if he indeed was taught by Matsumura's grandson, as he claimed.



    Another reason I have heard is that Soken was actually Chibana's student (and from what I've heard, at least some of Chibana's senior students hold this view)
    It would be a bit of a shock to me if Nabe Matsumura didn't exsist, personally I have accepted he did and taught Soken Sensei the family art. I do realise the evidence either way is difficult to be accurate with (not unusual in karate!).

    I also recall reading somewhere that Soken Sensei did indeed train with Chibana Sensei, I don't think that is unusual as Chibana Sensei was indeed very highley regarded on the island and if Soken Sensei had just returned from Argentina in 1952 it would make sense (to me), that he would want guidence from a Senior Shorin Ryu Master. (many of the Okinawan Seniors did much the same with Soken Sensei later on).

    I have had extensive communication with a student of one of the overseas senior students of Soken Sensei which confirms to me Soken Sensei was highly trained before leaving Okinawa in 1928 (and did indeed teach seisan! before forming the Seito Matsumura system).

    Clearly all difficult/impossible to prove, but theres no reason to make this stuff up IMO.
    Rgds,

    Jim Neeter
    Shorin Ryu Seito Matsumura Karate and Kobudo UK
    www.shoshinkanuk.org

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    Default Seisan

    I have been following this interesting thread and was wonder which "student of one of the overseas senior students of Soken Sensei which confirms to me Soken Sensei was highly trained before leaving Okinawa in 1928 (and did indeed teach seisan! before forming the Seito Matsumura system)."
    Edward Gingras
    Matsumura Seito

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