Ukemi - all we need to know

[Rob Gassin]

I have posted the same thread on Budoseek. Lets see how the replies compare .

1. How much time is dedicated to practicing ukemi at your branch?
2. Is it enough/too much?
3. What surface do you train on?
4. Can you do ukemi on a hard wooden floor without getting hurt?
5. Should you be able to ukemi on a hard wooden floor, if so why?
6. With mae ukemi, do you allow the arm you roll on to collapse as it hits the floor or do you keep it rigid?
7. After mae ukemi, is it better to end up in fukko dachi or in standing and why?

[Ewok]

1. How much time is dedicated to practicing ukemi at your branch?
2. Is it enough/too much?
3. What surface do you train on?
4. Can you do ukemi on a hard wooden floor without getting hurt?
5. Should you be able to ukemi on a hard wooden floor, if so why?
6. With mae ukemi, do you allow the arm you roll on to collapse as it hits the floor or do you keep it rigid?
7. After mae ukemi, is it better to end up in fukko dachi or in standing and why?

1. 2 of each (mae, ushiro, daisharin) at least once a week after kihon.
2. Not enough, but not nearly as bad as the lack of randori ()
3. Wooden gym floors. Hard. Unyielding. Ouchy.
4. You would think so by now....
5. I'd hope I can do ukemi, or else it'll hurt much more when we do a technique that requires ukemi.
6. I don't use my arm, but it is relaxed and there just in case.
7. Fukko dachi. If you want to stand up you still need to start from fukko dachi anyhow, and it allows you to go from ukemi to standing much quicker.

[Anders Pettersson]

I have posted the same thread on Budoseek. Lets see how the replies compare .

1. How much time is dedicated to practicing ukemi at your branch?
Basically we follow the kamoku and practice ukemi as often as it is listed (under the kihon column) there.
And for those who don't have a kamoku at hand it means about once every two weeks. Then of course one often practice some sort ukemi when doing juho hokei. It also happens sometime for warming up.

2. Is it enough/too much?
I think that the kamoku gives a good balance of all techniques, the problem in my experience is that very few dojo follow the kamoku for kihon practice.

3. What surface do you train on?
We have a wooden floor i our dojo, but also mats so people can start learning on mats.

4. Can you do ukemi on a hard wooden floor without getting hurt?
Yes, no problem. Have done demonstrations with full speed nage on marble floor as well.

5. Should you be able to ukemi on a hard wooden floor, if so why?
One should be able to do ukemi on pretty any surface. Why shouldn't we?

6. With mae ukemi, do you allow the arm you roll on to collapse as it hits the floor or do you keep it rigid?
I'm not sure how you mean, but the arms are used as a shock absorber when doing mae ukemi. The hands meet the floor as falling down, one bends them and slow the "falling speed" down and turn over and roll. If I understand what you mean with a rigid arm that wouldn't be a very soft ukemi.??

7. After mae ukemi, is it better to end up in fukko dachi or in standing and why?
As quick as possible to standing position, it is always better to stand up, fukko gamae would just be the second best option if one can't get up.


/Anders

[dirk.bruere]

4. Can you do ukemi on a hard wooden floor without getting hurt?
Yes, no problem. Have done demonstrations with full speed nage on marble floor as well.

Worst place I've done embu with full nage was on tarmac in a car park. No problem. However, mae ukemi on a wooden floor *always* hurts. I seem to have something that sticks out in my lower back

Dirk

[Rob Gassin]

6. With mae ukemi, do you allow the arm you roll on to collapse as it hits the floor or do you keep it rigid?
I'm not sure how you mean, but the arms are used as a shock absorber when doing mae ukemi. The hands meet the floor as falling down, one bends them and slow the "falling speed" down and turn over and roll. If I understand what you mean with a rigid arm that wouldn't be a very soft ukemi.??

/Anders

Thank you for your reply Anders Sensei.The reason for this particular question is that in some MA styles, instead of using the hands and arms as shock absorbers, the arm you roll on is kept slightly bent but rigid, like the rim of a wheel. This looks more gracious than the SK mae ukemi but does not feel as safe on hard surfaces as the body starts rolling from further off the floor.

[Anders Pettersson]

Thank you for your reply Anders Sensei.The reason for this particular question is that in some MA styles, instead of using the hands and arms as shock absorbers, the arm you roll on is kept slightly bent but rigid, like the rim of a wheel. This looks more gracious than the SK mae ukemi but does not feel as safe on hard surfaces as the body starts rolling from further off the floor.

Yes, I have seen this among some people. I think that that version might work nice on a mat, but not in real life.

It is sort of the same situation with some people when doing ushiro ukemi, they fold the rear leg and sort of lands on the knee when rolling backwards. This also works on a soft surface, but will probably get you several knee caps in the knee you land on when doing it on a hard surface.

/Anders

[Rob Gassin]

Anders Sensei,

further to my previous post, Following is a link to the aikido version of mae ukemi, as you will note it has an almost straight, rigid arm and the roll starts from much higher off the floor than our version.

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/1...-mae-ukemi.htm

Cheers,

[Gary Dolce]

I already posted this on Budoseek:

1. A few minutes of review almost every class - occasionally a longer session focusing on detail.

2. Not enough - ukemi practice just for the sake of it tends to fall through the cracks. On the other hand, we all get some practice with certain types of ukemi while doing juho, which we do at every practice session. When we have beginners, we spend more time just doing ukemi.

3. Wood dance floor.

4. Yes.

5. Yes, because it makes your ukemi better. If you can't make the transition from mats to wood without hurting yourself, you haven't really learned to protect yourself while doing ukemi.

Have done demonstrations with full speed nage on marble floor as well.

Early in my practice, we occasionally worked out in a horrible place with a concrete floor. I made it a point to always try out my ukemi there. I am a little less crazy now.

6. When I do mae ukemi, I use my arms to absorb the force of the fall and to slow my speed as I make the transition from falling to rolling. My arms do collapse somewhat, but with resistance, which slows the fall. In my mind, I picture my two arms acting like a leaf spring on truck, absorbing the force of the impact by compressing with resistance. This is one of the main differences I see between Kenshi who have learned to roll on hard surfaces and practitioners of other martial arts who only roll on mats.

7. Standing, but you should be able to do both. I was taught that it is always better to get to you feet as soon as possible. Your ability to dodge, attack, and/or retreat are better standing. That said, it is worth sometimes practicing defending from fukko dachi after ukemi since it may be unavoidable at times - for example if the attacker pursues very aggressively during ukemi to the point that there is no time to get to your feet.

A few other ukemi thoughts:
While I believe that Kenshi should ultimately learn to do ukemi on a wood floor, I introduce ukemi practice to first-timers on a mat. I believe ukemi is half technique and half fearless but relaxed attitude. Starting on a mat gives me a chance to teach technique first and build confidence, before switching to a less forgiving surface. I think learning on wood from the start can take longer because it is hard to learn to relax while doing ukemi when you keep rolling over the same bruises that resulted from poor technique. But we make the transition from mat to wood fairly quickly, as soon as they start to get the basic form of the ukemi.

further to my previous post, Following is a link to the aikido version of mae ukemi, as you will note it has an almost straight, rigid arm and the roll starts from much higher off the floor than our version.

Yes, I am familiar with this version from past students who also did aikido. I have experimented with it and don't think it works on a hard surface, but leave open the possibility that I don't properly understand the aikido version. I have also worked a bit on nage ukemi with judo students and have learned that the Shorinji Kempo version of nage ukemi needs to be modified a bit to deal with judo style throws.

[Gary Dolce]

It is sort of the same situation with some people when doing ushiro ukemi, they fold the rear leg and sort of lands on the knee when rolling backwards. This also works on a soft surface, but will probably get you several knee caps in the knee you land on when doing it on a hard surface.

/Anders

I have an additional concern about ushiro ukemi - the tendency to initially pick up the back foot off the floor while folding up the back leg prior to falling. In reality, if you are being pushed backward and have to do ushiro ukemi, your weight is likely being pushed onto the back leg, which makes it impossible to pick up the back foot and fold up the leg in this way. Instead, I work on trying to fall backward with weight on the back foot, making contact on the side of the back leg and one side of the butt without picking up the back foot and folding up the leg. It is less graceful, but feels more realistic against a hard backwards push.

[Gary Dolce]

[QUOTE=Ewok;471098]
6. With mae ukemi, do you allow the arm you roll on to collapse as it hits the floor or do you keep it rigid?

6. I don't use my arm, but it is relaxed and there just in case.
QUOTE]

Perhaps this is one reason for your answer to question 4. Try the approach that Anders and I describe and see if that helps. On a hard surface, it really helps to use the arms to absorb the shock and slow you down.

[Steve Malton]

Anders Sensei,

further to my previous post, Following is a link to the aikido version of mae ukemi, as you will note it has an almost straight, rigid arm and the roll starts from much higher off the floor than our version.

How does this style of ukemi work with obstacles, like if you need to make height or distance? One of the major advantages to the way shorinji kempo does ukemi has always seemed to me to be that you don't need to change the way you do ukemi to take these things into account, but doing an aikido-style roll over someone crouched in front of you looks like it would be very difficult or very painful.

[dirk.bruere]

Excuse my heresy, but I have never found the ukemis to be of any practical use outside of breakfalls from a technique. I suppose they *might* provide some conditioning if one trips, but again, I have never used one in such a circumstance. And the only time I was ever pushed unexpectedly hard and from behind caused my shoulders to go backwards (with stomach forwards) and I splattered face down into tarmac. Lots of blood.

Dirk

[Rob Gassin]

Steve,

In styles like hapkido, jumping mae ukemi are standard and they mannage (on rubber floors) with the straight arm. In fact the problem with the bent arm version with jumping mae ukemi is that given the force of the impact of the hand on the ground, the arm tends to collapse too much.

Attached ids a link to a clip on my Facebook site. You will note that my arms collapse, SK style whilst doing the jumping mae ukemi where as the guy safter mehas the more traditional hapkido style with the landing arm use as the rim of a wheel.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/vi...=1019734694699

Dirk, you are right regarding the usefulness of ukemis in real life. I heard a Japanese SK instructor say once - 'why spend as much time learning ukemi as strikes? In real self-defence situations, you will strike over 100 times before needing to do a ukemi.' Made a lot of sense to me.

There was a move many years ago to teach old people to do aikido falls to avoid hip and other fractures. My understanding is that it had no impact on their rate of injury.

[dirk.bruere]

There was a move many years ago to teach old people to do aikido falls to avoid hip and other fractures. My understanding is that it had no impact on their rate of injury.

The only modification I have made to falling (unexpectedly) is not trying to break my fall using the palms of my hands, which is the normal instinct. Instead to hit starting at the wrist and using the forearm to soak up the impact. Or, if possible, to twist sideways and hit with my shoulder.

Dirk

[Rob Gassin]

The only modification I have made to falling (unexpectedly) ...if possible, to twist sideways and hit with my shoulder.

Dirk

Ouch!!! I hopeyou hit the back of your shoulder otherwise thweA/C joint is vulnerable - trust me - been there done that.