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Thread: Kenjutsu training

  1. #121
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    I'll add in a link to one of my favorite threads here at E-Budo: Ryuuha Bugei all soft and mushy, too!
    The thread includes excerpts from the article "Off the Warpath" by Karl Friday, professor of history at the University of Georgia and menkyo kaiden holder in Kashima-Shinryu.

    I'll elaborate: Underneath the whole "to spar, or not to spar" debate are certain assumptions about the goals and ideals of traditional JSA training. The linked thread/article addresses that issue.
    Last edited by TimothyKleinert; 23rd December 2008 at 17:23.
    --Timothy Kleinert

    Aikido & Qigongs

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by drosera99 View Post
    In that sense, no degree of sophistication in practice technology can ever accurately simulate the experience of combat, or even approximate it.
    I don't think this is true. It isn't like combat, but training with equipment, done properly, does simulate the dynamics of the experience enough to be a very powerful training tool.

    Sims has demonstrably shown that for modern gunfighting. Not the same, but teaching many valuable lessons that cannot be learned on the range - with no one shooting/fighting back. The equipment can be problematic, but I can attest that it does not alter the encounter so markedly that the fundamental dynamic changes any moreso than in any other kind of training.

    The defecators (good one!) should not be viewed as the benchmark. There are people who no matter how much training they receive will always be "worriers" rather than "warriors." It is in how those who effectively rise to their training under duress do. Not everyone that is trained does so.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Mahan View Post
    It could be argued that anything that makes mortal combat safe enough to practice regularly, has a corruptive effect as it removes the psychological element that comes with the very real possibility of death.

    No level of training will ever fully replicate the conditions of lethal combat. There will ALWAYS be some form of compromise, future tech solutions not withstanding. The trick is to find a balance which fits with the priorities of the curriculum being trained in. Who sets those priorities? Not us.
    Very well said. As no training effectively mimics mortal combat, no training with a sane, qualified instructor will ever approach the psychological reality of facing mortal combat.

    Some completely untrained people will face death readily; some very well trained people will cower from even the hint of it. The trained person, who is able to rise to the occasion, will find some application for his training.

  4. #124
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    Hmm, I realize that my wording above is a bit clumsy - my meaning is that I do believe that one can attain an approximation of the dynamics of a combative encounter through training methodologies which make use of a force on force element (in the case of combatives training, "purpose driven" sparring versus open ended free-for-alls or for the purposes found in sport shiai).

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Sims has demonstrably shown that for modern gunfighting.
    Glad to be of service
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  6. #126
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    LOL - your influence is broad and far reaching!

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    I don't think this is true. It isn't like combat, but training with equipment, done properly, does simulate the dynamics of the experience enough to be a very powerful training tool.
    I don't necessarily disagree. I was simply pointing out that the notion of "realistic sparring" is a contradiction in terms. As I said, sparring can never simulate the stress of real combat because of the psychological component and the fact that training equipment will ultimately modify techniques when shiai becomes so engrained as to be considered an end in and of itself.

    I heard an interesting story about a laser-tag community. Many of the kids who played laser-tag at this place had parents who were Marines. Once, they decided to have a parents vs. kids competition. The Marines thought they were going to clean up because they had all had formal training in how to fight with ranged weapons. However, they did not. All of the kids new a special way of firing the laser guns where, when firing, you turned your back on the target, put your head in between your knees, and fired through the space between your legs. While it sounds absurd, this method had the advantage of covering all of the targets that the lasers could hit while still being reasonably accurate. Clearly, laser-tag is not a combat training tool and this firing method would get you killed if used in a gun fight. Laser-tag is a game. But so is kendo and similarly, many of the techniques used in kendo would not work with a sword. These are the consequences when sparring (or laser-tag) becomes the goal instead of the training tool. Techniques will get distorted to adapt to the protective equipment, no matter how good that equipment is. That is not to say that sparring will always be elevated above the status of a training tool but it has historically happened with a good deal of frequency. Just look at kendo or fencing.
    Regards,

    Jeffrey Luz-Alterman

  8. #128
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    I think the basic idea for me is that, there are different methods of training:
    - solo drills
    - paired drills
    - test cutting
    - sparring
    etc...

    Each of the training method have their own gaps. And each one compliment others, to fill in each other's gaps.

    Jack.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by drosera99 View Post
    I heard an interesting story about a laser-tag community. [snip]Techniques will get distorted to adapt to the protective equipment, no matter how good that equipment is. That is not to say that sparring will always be elevated above the status of a training tool but it has historically happened with a good deal of frequency. Just look at kendo or fencing.
    In kendo, at least, there is significant effort to keep things from getting ridiculous. In shiai we have fairly strict rules on what is and is not a point and subjective judging to keep it in line. Not that there isn't some wacky stuff going on, but we do try. Electronic scoring in fencing allows the rules and equipment to be pushed to the limit in service of getting the light to go on. But beyond the shiai rules, kendo also has our everyday keiko, where sensei will disparage hits that would score in shiai and encourage a more pure, proper attack. The ultimate goal in kendo is win, then cut.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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