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Thread: Kenjutsu training

  1. #16
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    Wow. I am really making myself look bad.

    So, about forcing myself to believe. Like ive said, i change my mind every other day. im going to work on myself and try to expand the believing days.

    By legitimate HEMA, i mean with a tradition going back to the middle ages. It is very imporant that we learn from a tradition, because we cannot see for ourselves whether a technique works or not. Most HEMA is recreated through manuals, which were written to be cryptic.

    Even so, a few very gifted scholars and fighters have attempted to produce accurate and living HEMA, and one day i still hope to learn it.


    About production swords and blocking: Again i ask: if you have a choice, why would you train with a sword that you would not use in combat?

    Good luck, in whatever.
    Lol

    Its much appreciated. Allot of luck i can really use.

    Paul Green

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Green View Post
    ...About production swords and blocking: Again i ask: if you have a choice, why would you train with a sword that you would not use in combat?
    "Blocking," per se, is not seen much in the schools I have practiced; rather we use deflections, which are often simultaneous cuts. Any decent blade (which rules out about 99% of stainless steel blades, IMO) that can cut without breaking or bending will also handle deflections -- if done with proper technique.

    As for using a different blade for cutting than for kata, some people do cutting for cutting's sake, and a heavy blade that has forward weight bias will make cutting somewhat easier than with a lighter blade with a more neutral balance.

    Also, if cutting soft material only -- tatami omote without a core, for example -- a blade polished to have a thin edge without much niku makes for easier cutting, in some people's opinion, than a meatier blade, but would not be as good for cutting hard targets or for kata.

    HTH.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Green View Post
    ...why would you train with a sword that you would not use in combat?...
    All kinds of assumptions and preconceptions there. Why train at all with an archaic weapon? What weapon is good enough? What art is good enough? And good enough for what? We each train for different reasons, and often those reasons change over time, as we learn more about the sword, the art and ourselves. Why do you train? And why choose an art that does not use live blades if you feel that is important? Why look to spar if you want to use live blades?
    Was in Japan this last week, in Yokohama, with some students, training for and participating in an annual competition (tai kai). We spent about 20 hours over a four day period training with our seniors. No sparring, just one and two person forms, some cutting. Bought and used a beautiful nihonto, trained with it, performed kata and shizan (cutting) at the competition. It was amazing, strong and fast, unbelievably sharp. The swordsmith attended the event, watched his sword in use. Said he had created the blade to be used, went away happy, I think. No question in my mind what this sword, traditionally made, soshu-den, in the style of Shizu Kaneuji, one of the ten famous students of Masamune (late 1200's, during the warring states period), is capable of. No question either that no production blade out there is its equal, in artistry, history, polish or fittings. Also unlikely that 90% of the people out here swinging swords have bothered to study enough to appreciate it. Lots more to what we do than swinging, fighting. So what? Are some production blades good enough? Sure. Everybody starts somewhere. Important part is where they go with it, what they do with it, not what they swing, neh?
    So again, why train? What is the point? What do you think you want from it? Maybe someone here can point you to a compatible art or group, or something to supplement your training, if your teacher allows it.

    Dave
    Last edited by socho; 30th November 2008 at 23:47.
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

  4. #19
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    You've hit me with a tough one.

    Ive thought about why i like swordsmanship of all forms. But ive never come up with a reasonable answer besides "its cool" or "its fun"

    I guess you could say that swords are useless today, and if so ive wasted a good part of 4 years of my life (fencing, though its not realistic anyway)5.

    But i guess i just like swords. And part of liking swords is it being real. Fake techniques that dont work do not appeal to me. If it doesnt work, its just dancing. Dancing is beautiful, difficult, rewarding, fun... it just is not for me.


    Oh, and a big reason i like swords is that its different. I like being different.
    Not sure why, but it shows up again and again in my life, swordsmanship being only one area.

    It does not really matter if your techniques are realistic.
    But once your making the commitment, and you spend the money and time and effort, why not do it right.

    I'm sure everyone has their own answer. But i dont.


    Overall, swordsmanship has been very good to me. Even if it is "worthless".

    And again, i would like to thank all of you for some delightful conversation.

    Paul Green

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Green View Post
    ... I guess you could say that swords are useless today, and if so ive wasted a good part of 4 years of my life
    no worries, you're in good company.
    ... Fake techniques that dont work do not appeal to me. If it doesnt work, its just dancing.
    I agree with you there. Personally, I think the sword is a symbol of many things. Respect for that symbology, respect for the sword, demands that what we do is 'real' even if it will never be used.

    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

  6. #21
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    I agree with you there. Personally, I think the sword is a symbol of many things. Respect for that symbology, respect for the sword, demands that what we do is 'real' even if it will never be used.
    Likewise, i was reading the argument that doing tameshigiri is an insult to the sword.

    I do not agree.
    I have talked to caretakers of retired race horses. They say that the horse still want to run. Its what they have been doing their whole lives, and they want to continue.

    I believe that a sword "wants" to be used. A car "wants" to be driven. Everything "wants" to reach its full potential, just as Doctors want to practice medicine, lawers want to practice law, and kendoka want to compete.

    If swords were alive, i could see them being very exited to do tameshigiri for the first time, just as exited the wielder

    Paul Green

    Edit- Traditional Japanese People: Please do not be insulted. I certainly respect your right to hold true to your beliefs.

  7. #22
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    Mr. Green,

    This is a topic that's come up before, with many good discussions. In particular, I recommend the following threads:

    Weapons free-play in classical JMA?

    The kata-speed used in the Koryu traditions

    Some things to consider. As someone noted above, in the beginning things may be done slowly, safely, as the student is introduced to the kata and concepts therein. But gradually they'll be done at faster speeds, with variable rhythm, with in an increase in possible targets. The disadvantage in kata lies in the possibility of calcification, or "dance-ification", if you will. But done right they are highly effective training tools. I know the kata I've been taught like the back of my hand. I know what the other guy will do, and I know what I'm supposed to do. I still get hit. Repeatedly.

    Another thing to consider is the nature of kata in koryu pedagogy. They are essentially physical koan, passed down from the founders. Again, done right, you can receive insight "directly" from the founders. This, I think is especially important in these modern times when the sword is not actually used for combat. The relevance of the classical arts to modern times is not in their techniques, but in the physiological and psychological insight they provide, which is interred not in the writings, but rather in the physical kata themselves.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, þonne he æt guðe gengan þenceð longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearað. - The Beowulf Poet

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken-Hawaii View Post
    ...When you say kenjutsu, are you speaking specifically of kendo, or are you asking about iaido, too (or instead).
    Uh, neither? Kenjutsu in my experience doesn't refer to Kendo or Iaido, but to...well...kenjutsu.

    Toyama Ryu, Shinkendo, Seiki Ryu, Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu, Shinto Ryu, etc., etc. have kenjutsu curricula.

    ...With only six months of training, I doubt that your sensei would agree to paired practice.
    In Seiki Ryu, we began paired practice after just a few weeks. (Or did you mean paired practice with shinken? If so, yes, definitely not for beginners.)

    By the way, I have only heard the term "kenshi" applied to kendo.
    It just means "swordsman," and so is used in other contexts as well.

    (Kenshi is also used in Shorinji Kenpo, but with different kanji and a different meaning.)
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 1st December 2008 at 02:23.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  9. #24
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    Ohhhhhhhkaaaaaaay

    Ive finaly wadded through the thick (and enlightening) wad that Mr. Reyer brought up (thanks)

    It seems like advanced kata do provide allot of training (85%, 90%?) with true free training (with at least a dull shinken (ie, carbon steel, not like an iaito) a must.

    Today though, we are not willing to risk our lives, so we cant train with the realism.

    And although we can sort-of kind-of recreate it with modern tech, its not close enough.

    So modern kenshi choose to remain at that almost but not quite there level.
    They still have an incredible amount of skill, though.

    If Dune become real, they will certainly be at the top, and it would not be hard to reinstate free sparing to make kenjutu fully functional (up to 100%)


    If kata are done properly (I think in my school they are), they seem to suffice.

    Its good enough for me

    Thanks
    Paul Green

    PS If im wrong in any of the above, please correct me, but lets try to keep this from a flame war. Its been so nice so far

  10. #25
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    It seems like advanced kata do provide allot of training (85%, 90%?) with true free training (with at least a dull shinken (ie, carbon steel, not like an iaito) a must.
    Neither of the two koryu I train in have "free training" as part of the curriculum, so I'm not sure I agree with the "must" part.

    The kata you do as a six month student is not the same kata you will do as you go along, even though the name & movements are the same. The kata teach you different things at different points in your training. To me, it is not a matter of a kata being "advanced" or not; it is a matter of what extraneous and unnecessary movement I am ready to cut out of the kata to get to the essence and principle.

    I've learned countless things from the very first kata I ever learned years ago. I assume this kata will teach me something the very last time in my life I am lucky enough to do it.

    The process, as it has been explained to me, is to keep working the kata and eventually they "speak" to you. It's up to you and your teacher whether or not you incorporate free training into your life, but I wouldn't say that it is a must. (This, of course, rests on what you goal is in training.)

    Kevin Cantwell

  11. #26
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    The process, as it has been explained to me, is to keep working the kata and eventually they "speak" to you. It's up to you and your teacher whether or not you incorporate free training into your life, but I wouldn't say that it is a must. (This, of course, rests on what you goal is in training.)
    I could not agree more. Kata ARE and invaluable learning tool. But they are not the be all and end all.

    Just as you can learn from kata, you can learn from free training.
    Free training does require more wisdom to be beneficial.
    Free training does also have a greater risk of deteriorating skills.

    And you must never stop using kata, because you can keep on learning from even the most basic kata.

    Paul Green

  12. #27
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    Just as you can learn from kata, you can learn from free training.
    No argument in the abstract, but in practice the question always becomes "How free is it really?"

    At what point are you simply gilding the lily to get away from kata as opposed to creating a worthwhile and valuable didactic alternative?

    I've found in my own practice that simply changing the timing within the kata can create some exhilarating moments, but this is certainly no facsimile of reality.

    Changing targets is a bit more sketchy as someone can get hurt quite easily. We may play with the notion of cutting high or low and having to wait to see which is coming to respond, but there are parameters...work on Monday and all that. This really tells you how much you fudge when you know what is coming, as the timing shouldn't be any different, really.

    Take care,

    Kevin Cantwell

  13. #28
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    I believe that a great deal of the time that people find fault in kata based training the fault actually lies within their interpretation or understanding of kata based training. Once the junior has learned a kata it is the role of the senior to press the junior beyond their comfort zone within that kata or the system. If this does not happen you are not getting the full benefit from kata practice. I believe in some of Mr. Lowry's writing he discusses kata training with his sensei and its truly frightening nature. I would wager that after six months of training within a ryu you are not at a spot where you can truly understand the full benefit of kata based bujutsu. It seems that there is a great deal of written resource material available; Karl Friday, Dave Lowry, Ellis Amdur which discuss these points pretty extensively. That is where I would begin to look for more information on kata based training. The reality is that you must spend a great deal of time learning the pattern of a kata before you will actually be able to train the kata as it is meant to be done. One only have their senior change the maai of a kata to gather new insight.

    Jeff
    Jeff Brown

  14. #29
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    No argument in the abstract, but in practice the question always becomes "How free is it really?"
    The free training i have been speaking of for the last 2 posts is shinken vs shinken, just barely stopping before you kill him.

    Even in the old days this was probably done in the real world, just against obviously less skilled opponents (my guess).

    At the very least you can get used to the feeling and high adrenalin
    of real combat.

    Today, though, it is just not an option.

    ???Make any sense????


    Oh, and il look into some of the books

    Paul Green

  15. #30
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    The free training i have been speaking of for the last 2 posts is shinken vs shinken, just barely stopping before you kill him.
    ???Make any sense????
    Not really....

    I've heard of high-level guys in various ryu doing kata with live blades, but some sort of free training with live blades? This would be absolutley delusional (and probably illegal) and you should run away very fast from anyone suggesting such a thing.

    So you screw up and don't "stop short" and take a father, son, brother, or devoted friend off the planet for.....training? Training, is after all, about making mistakes and learning from them. Not much left to learn if I'm dead or in jail.

    Playing with blades in such a fashion can only lead to really, really bad outcomes. Heck, I've been wacked on the hands and bean with bokuto and jo in kata....bad enough, but at least I got home to my kids.

    I can't imagine putting that on the line by using live blades for free training.

    Check out http://www.koryu.com for some essays written by the people mentioned above on this topic.

    Take care,

    Kevin Cantwell
    Last edited by K. Cantwell; 1st December 2008 at 22:33.

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