Likes Likes:  0
Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 129

Thread: Kenjutsu training

  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    520
    Likes (received)
    72

    Default

    Dear Mr. Green,

    "The free training i have been speaking of for the last 2 posts is shinken vs shinken, just barely stopping before you kill him."

    I'm pretty sure there aren't any ryu that did any free sparring shinken vs. shinken. It sounds like a really bad idea. There are some ryu that use shinken in kata practice (usually called habiki). In Jikishinkage-ryu we have two sets of kata that use shinken vs. shinken. There are some cuts that come VERY close, but such training has to be in kata form. One little mistake and someone bleeds to death. No good now or 300 years ago.

    "Even in the old days this was probably done in the real world, just against obviously less skilled opponents (my guess)."

    I think this is called a duel

    "At the very least you can get used to the feeling and high adrenalin
    of real combat."

    I don't think there is much, other then real combat, that can replicate real combat. Good kata training will certainly tax you though. If you don't believe me ask a Jikishinkage-ryu teacher to teach you To-no-kata (they use shinai don't worry) and then ask them to go 100% with you. You'll quickly end up with bruises on your arms, hands, lower legs and head. You'll also quickly realize how bad of an idea it is to do free training shinken vs. shinken.

    As for kata vs. shiai: Karl Friday makes a good point in Legacies of the Sword on this topic. This is a nearly 300 year old argument. Some schools such as Itto-ryu and Jikishinkage-ryu do (or used to do) shiai in some form. Other schools such as Katori Shinto-ryu never did shiai. All produced very talented swordsmen.

    You may want to research Terada Goroemon (Itto-ryu) for more insight into the argument of kata vs. shiai.

    Best regards,
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Texas
    Posts
    2,000
    Likes (received)
    125

    Default

    Mr. Green,
    My opinion, based upon your own opinions, is that you watch too much TV. You seem to have an awful lot of opinions on how you think things should be and were, and you say "probably" a lot. However, it is fairly obvious that these are merely guesses on your part, and mostly blind guesses at that. I would advise you to stop "wondering" and begin researching. There are many good English language books on the history of Japan and the Japanese sword arts. There are also many good books on the nature and training of the koryu.

    At your level of training, you should be concentrating hard on simply "doing", and leaving the "why" portion for later when you have a better understanding. I know that's a difficult thing to do, but it will help you a lot. After six months, your understanding is still very basic and the answers to the questions you've posed are fairly complicated. Those answers will also change depending upon which school is doing the answering.

    As with everything Japanese, there is more than one one correct answer. Trying to pin things down to absolutes is detrimental to your training since an empty cup is a vital part of any Japanese sword art.

    And those are simply my opinions.
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  3. #33
    Finny Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Green View Post
    The free training i have been speaking of for the last 2 posts is shinken vs shinken, just barely stopping before you kill him.

    Even in the old days this was probably done in the real world, just against obviously less skilled opponents (my guess).

    At the very least you can get used to the feeling and high adrenalin
    of real combat.

    Today, though, it is just not an option.

    ???Make any sense????


    Oh, and il look into some of the books

    Paul Green

    That 'guess' completely dismisses the point of the poster you quoted.

    "The question becomes how 'free' is it really?"

    You can't spar or 'free train' with live blades. That's a fight to the death, whether you think you're sparring or not. Even if you were to attempt to "stop just before killing him" - one mistake and someone ends up dead. That's not training, that's Russian roulette. Kinda like thinking the army trains by putting soldiers in the field with live ammo against each other - "OK, go shoot each other, just remember it's sparring, so no killing each other..."

    Completely impossible.

    The only way to "spar" with swords is to use dulled impact weapons (shinai) and protective gear.

    THEN - the question becomes 'how close is this to the real thing?' (as you quoted)

    obviously looking at kendo these days one can see people doing things that just wouldn't work with a real blade. Hence the traditional attitude with kata as the primary teaching/learning device in kenjutsu.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    53
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    My opinion, based upon your own opinions, is that you watch too much TV. You seem to have an awful lot of opinions on how you think things should be and were, and you say "probably" a lot. However, it is fairly obvious that these are merely guesses on your part, and mostly blind guesses at that. I would advise you to stop "wondering" and begin researching. There are many good English language books on the history of Japan and the Japanese sword arts. There are also many good books on the nature and training of the koryu.
    Yea, its right. I really am. Its pretty sad.

    I must really look like an idiot. But at least im looking for answers.

    Ill drop it, i guess, if i was wrong. Im really looking forward to reading some of the books mentioned, and getting the facts. It will probably change my views allot.

    And i will progress in kenjutsu, i will see all of the things that was talked about.

    Paul Green

    I feel stupid

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    276
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    No need to feel stupid, just feel like a beginner with allot of enthusiasm. There are several great books available. The koryu.com link someone posted above is a great place to start. Autumn Lightning and Persimmon Wind by Dave Lowry, Old School by Ellis Amdur, Legacies of the Sword by Karl Friday, The three books edited by Diane Skoss as well as Donn Draeger's trilogy are all great places to start.

    Jeff Brown
    Jeff Brown

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    53
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Oh, and does everyone now see why i did not want to mention my school?

    Paul Green

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    The Old Dominion
    Posts
    1,590
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    As Chris pointed out, there have been several koryu kenjutsu schools that included shiai in their kata-- Jikishinkage Ryu, Maniwa Nen Ryu, various Itto Ryu factions, etc. All of these schools used fukuro shinai of one form or another, though I've heard that at least one school originally used bokken (they traded their bokken in for fukuro shinai just as soon as they found out that someone had invented the fukuro shinai). In some of his writings Ellis Amdur has described doing freestyle sparring with bokken (pulling the blows at the last moment) and shinai during his Araki Ryu training, going up against opponents armed with all sorts of practice weapons (kusarigama, chigiriki, etc).

    There are several other schools that don't seem to have ever used sparring in any format. But those schools lasted-- and were popular--for centuries during a time period when being a bad swordsmen meant certain death. They must have been doing something right.

    Either way, Paul, at six months in, this is only a matter of intellectual curiosity for you. Trying to spar without having a solid foundation in the techniques of the ryu would be like sitting down to do some jazz on the piano without having ever practiced the scales. Five, six years-- or perhaps many more-- from now continuous, diligent practice of kata might have burned not just the outer techniques, but the movement patterns, the sense of distance, and the timing that defines your school into your nerves and movements. At that point, there might be something for you to gain by practicing the techniques of the school in a freeform environment. In some schools (see above) that was done by sparring. In others, instructors would "break" the kata, suddenly changing attacks on the student in the middle of a kata that they have practiced a thousand times to see if they can react within the parameters of the school. I've even heard of kata breaking like that being done with live blades, though only by extremely experienced practitioners.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    53
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    If i may be so bold to ask, do those of you who have been doing it for many, many years ever doubt your abilities?

    Do you truly believe that you have a level of mastery as to be victorious in a real duel?

    im really hoping that my doubts are due to inexperience.

    Paul Green

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    73
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Books published by koryu.com has been mentioned, but there is also some very good articles at that place. Just to get you started, this should be interesting for you.
    http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur2.html


    Ooo, Almost forgot. A new article by David Hall about kata
    http://www.koryu.com/library/dhall1.html
    Steffen Gjerding
    Kakudokan dojo

    Yup, lousy english

  10. #40
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    320
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Do you truly believe that you have a level of mastery as to be victorious in a real duel?
    I don't really think about it, because it isn't my goal in training.

    As was said above, nobody that is well grounded trains in this stuff because of a fear of zombies or to be a 21st C. samurai. At the end of a life of training, you have a life of training to show for it. That is good enough for me. There are legion reasons to train, but becoming a death dealing machine isn't one I've come across in legitimate ryu.

    A member here said years ago, "Maybe we all suck." In the end, does it really matter if we do compared to "real" warriors? (I would think we probably do.) You do what your teacher tells you to do to the best of your ability day after day, year after year, and at the end you have a lifetime of training. I think that is the point for many members here.

    I think the doubts will go away as you progress as you find what it is about training that keeps you coming back. The idea of winning a duel should quickly fade, I would think.

    Kevin Cantwell

  11. #41
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    260
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    You might start swordsmanship training as a young man with the feeling in the back of your head that you'd like to be effective in a "real" duel. Obviously koryu teach only effective techniques for that reason. But as the years go by, this persistent question of "how will I know?" is beaten down by the equally persistent reality that you never will. And in the meantime you realise you've stayed with the training for different reasons that those with which you started.

    Kendo is a lifelong activity because the battle is not between my technique and my opponent's, but between my mind/heart/spirit and theirs. Or perhaps more correctly, between the parts of me that strive and the parts of me that want to sabotage that striving.

    Some days you know that you are scoring in jigeiko with techniques that would be effective with a live blade. But the sane amongst us realise that we've done so, as Neil said, with nothing at stake, so we don't take that extra mental step and say that we would have won a real sword fight. Those that don't realise this are usually suffering from testosterone poisoning, which they will either die from or grow out of.

    I think your questioning is good and done with the right spirit. I completely understand your decision not to reveal your school, it shows a healthy lack of self-centredness.

    My take, as a kendoka, on what the root of your frustration is, is sweat, or absence thereof. You're obviously a young man, and young men interested in MA should expend a great deal of sweat dealing in some kind of confrontation with another, i.e. fighting. When you're old and your body can only dance, not fight, you hopefully will find the dancing to be more effective anyway.

    As another poster already said, keep training in your koryu but see if you can also do kendo. Many koryu have members who are also highly ranked kendoka. Depending on the koryu the two could be very mutually beneficial. I find they are in my case.

    b

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    143
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Cantwell View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Green
    Do you truly believe that you have a level of mastery as to be victorious in a real duel?
    I don't really think about it, because it isn't my goal in training.
    Though written explicitly about iai, I think it relates to all budo. As my teacher once told me:
    居合道は真剣を用いて、一人で修練する事が出来る日本の古来より伝わる武道である。この武道の奥底にあるものは古人曰く「剣は心の妙徳なり」「剣は心なり、心正しければ剣正し、心正しからざれば剣また正しからず」 と云われている。つまり、居合道の底に流れるものは、礼譲慈愛質実剛健の気を養い。盡忠正義の精神を練磨する事にあると同時に身体を鍛練しより良き人間形成を図る道の云える。
    Iaido, a solo pursuit using a real Japanese sword, is a martial art that has been passed down from older times. At the heart of this martial art is the axiom, “The sword creates virtue.” If the heart is correct, the sword is correct. If the heart is unsound, the sword, too, is unsound. The goal of iaido is to cultivate a humble, kind, and strong spirit. Iaido is a path by which we can measure our personal growth as we polish a right spirit and temper our bodies.
    My apologies for a less than ideal translation. However, it should be clear that nowhere is there mention of ability in duels or anything else. We train for the same reason we might pursue anything else: to be better today than we were yesterday.

    -Eric
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    The Old Dominion
    Posts
    1,590
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Green View Post
    Do you truly believe that you have a level of mastery as to be victorious in a real duel?
    Paul,

    I remember a post made on SwordForum not too long ago by Meik Skoss in which he related an incident that occurred when he was training in Tendo Ryu. While he normally had trouble going "all out" in kata due to the fact that his Tendo Ryu sensei were all quite literally little old ladies, one day he finally managed to fully cut loose during training. His practice weapon whistled through the air at his teacher's unprotected head during the kata, and too late he realized that he couldn't pull the shot and that the distance was perfect for an actual blow-- his teacher was about to get her skull caved in by his weapon. Suddenly she emitted a verbal kiai unlike anything he had heard before-- his heart literally skipped a beat and his body froze, his cut completely aborted and his mind shaken. For that moment, he was completely helpless and open to any sort of counterattack, all because of her kiai.

    Someone else-- it might have been Meik or Ellis-- related an interesting story about another Tendo Ryu instructor on this forum. She, like most senior Tendo Ryu practitioners, was a woman in her seventies or so, one who had never seen a battlefield or a real duel. After she won a match against a high-level kendo instructor who was also a veteran of the Pacific War, the kendoka related to some of his students that she had not only beaten him, but she had terrified him in a way that no opponent, on the battlefield or off, had ever done.

    I could relate several other similar stories that I've heard along these lines-- stories about older Japanese men and women who never ventured anywhere near a real battlefield in their lives being able to chill the blood and paralyze the bodies of real combat veterans using just their ability to psychologically dominate an opponent. In many of the old schools, this ability is referred to as "kiai," and you'll find some excellent writings on kiaijutsu both on this site and in the writings of some of the authors already mentioned.

    I bring all of this up because training in a legitimate koryu is usually designed to sharpen one's kiai. I feel that anyone who can cause a veteran soldier who survived the Second World War to freeze up in confusion just by his attitude during kata training, for example, could probably do pretty well in any sort of duel. As you train, you'll become more sensitive to kiai. As you have a chance to train with very experienced instructors, or as your instructor increases the intensity of your training, you'll begin to see how your training cultivates this characteristic. Once you've had the experience of facing some guy who has done nothing but kata training for many, many years but who can make you feel like you're being run over by a truck every time he crosses bokken with you, I think that you'll stop doubting the effectiveness of your kata training.

    In the meantime, don't be too embarrassed; I suspect that all of us have had these questions at some time or another. Train, do some more research, and then train harder. In two years, ask yourself the same questions that you are asking now, and see what your answers are.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    320
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    remember a post made on SwordForum not too long ago by Meik Skoss in which he related an incident that occurred when he was training in Tendo Ryu. While he normally had trouble going "all out" in kata due to the fact that his Tendo Ryu sensei were all quite literally little old ladies, one day he finally managed to fully cut loose during training. His practice weapon whistled through the air at his teacher's unprotected head during the kata, and too late he realized that he couldn't pull the shot and that the distance was perfect for an actual blow-- his teacher was about to get her skull caved in by his weapon. Suddenly she emitted a verbal kiai unlike anything he had heard before-- his heart literally skipped a beat and his body froze, his cut completely aborted and his mind shaken. For that moment, he was completely helpless and open to any sort of counterattack, all because of her kiai.
    Meik picked up some of that kiai mojo himself in his travels.

    Our Buko-ryu kata begin with the senior calling the junior out with a kiai that I've heard translated as "arrow voice." His goes right through me much like an arrow and the last thing I want to do is start walking towards him with ill intent. It's a strange feeling, but it takes me a second to regroup once he starts and then it modulates as I come in. So, I not only have to deal with him and his weapon, but the effect his center, through his voice, is having on me.

    My wife thinks I'm a bit touched when she hears me practicing this in the basement, but as David said above, there is something quite important about this kiai stuff.

    Kevin Cantwell

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    53
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Wow. I just read a ton of articles at Koryu.com

    Everything seems so...different now.

    Paul Green

    Ps- My sensei says im ready for an iaito!

Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •