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Thread: Kenjutsu training

  1. #46
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    Hi Paul,
    Your at the very basic stage so don`t worry about it or think too much! Instead just keep learning, practicing and absorbing! Wait till about 5-10yr mark and then look back! I have about 7-8 years experience in Iaido and Kendo. Iaido has only in the past year really taken off! That is because I have been doing alot more serious training time, competing, etc etc. 2nd I have been doing the waza with more intent. Anyways just keep plugging away and don`t worry about it!

    Jeff Collier
    Jeff Collier

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Green View Post
    Wow. I just read a ton of articles at Koryu.com

    Everything seems so...different now.

    Paul Green

    Ps- My sensei says im ready for an iaito!
    Gentlemen, I think our work here is done!

    b

  3. #48

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    Just my 350 lei worth:

    The topic is something that even those who have studied for many years go through.

    I have been back and forth between the "kata/partner kata/actual fighting" argument many times in the last 15 years and the lesson learned always comes back to a simple concept... context.

    One needs to get into the context of a period confrontation to understand why things were done the way they were.

    I think we westerners try to associate what WE THINK of as a "fight" into an art and tradition that does not share the same philosophy.

    One should remember (myself included... the bokuto upside the head reminds me quite often) that each combatant has a 3 foot long razor blade. The confrontation and the moving around trying to find an opening/ set up a closing technique is happening well outside of each person's cutting range and is not nearly as dynamic as you might think. There isn't a lot of dancing and the kamae that leads up to one final and committed attack does not waver or move around. More motion in the body and in the kissaki equals slower technique by virtue of distance alone. The closer the kissaki is to the opponent, the faster it will get to the opponent.

    Many people think that what we see in Kendo, for example, is what might be happening in an actual "fight". Yes and no. In Kendo, as well as in any sort of competitive fighting, a practitioner can "try" something to set up an opening. If it fails, they might get a smack or have a point scored on them. But regardless, they can then try something else and continue the fight. With real swords against someone who really wants to kill you, that smack...even if it is on the wrist, is going to be the end. Thus, in kendo, the random smacks to the head and to the wrist are not always issued a point.

    Therefore, in my very uneducated opinion, using partner kata of an established ryu as the vessel to transmit the old fighting principles is the way to go. You are not only learning fighting techniques, you are learning to react to the subtle cues your opponent is presenting prior to a committed attack. You are using your body/ sword position and footwork as you APPROACH the fighting range to create those openings. If you start formulating your strategy when you get to within two steps of your opponent, something is getting cut. Strategies of attacking vulnerable targets, using straight line techniques from the most appropriate kamae, and using controlling the centerline as a vehicle for producing semi-predictable responses are some of the things that need to be practiced during kumitachi practice.

    Naturally, practicing the kata alone without a truly qualified Sensei hovering over your shoulder to tell you WHY you are doing certain things is just dancing and will certainly leave the student with a feeling of "how is this teaching me to fight?"

    But, as is the case with us westerners trying to get into a Japanese sword art, we want immediate results and immediate answers to our questions. Thus the statement "your body will figure it out" comes into play quite a bit. When we are still beginners, we need to curb our desire to ask why and simply practice. Constantly asking why, at least from my experience with Sensei in Japan, will take you farther from getting the questions answered.

    Thus the underlying question that has been asked that has not been answered that is on everyone's mind...what ryu ha are you studying? If it is a koryu or traditional gendai art and your teacher is a certified dojo in the lineage and everyone is able to receive constant instruction, then you have nothing to worry about...just keep practicing. The questions will get answered when you are ready to have them answered. We all respect not disclosing the school or ryu. But, your questions can be more directly answered if we know where you are coming from... I think the many responses you have received thus far should be able to provide you with the answers you desire.

    And I can't echo the themes brought up by Mr. Drawdy and the others time and again. We do not walk around the streets with swords. We do this because we like to and have some sort of unexplained fascination with it. So, we do not go into practice wanting an explanation or a way of associating it with modern combat or even waiting and wondering how this stuff applied 300 years ago... we simply do it, not wanting anything.

    Best

    Rob Rivers
    Rob Rivers

  4. #49
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    it's an old topic but some of the stories on this post were worth it. Some of the best examples of kiai i have heard.

    Before i started i was actually pretty skeptical about so called "Kata only" training, but everything i have seen and read has dispelled any doubts i had. Lots of great real life accounts out there which in my opinion should satisfy any skeptic
    Daniel Mignerey

  5. #50
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    I'm by no means a long-timer, but here's one way I look at it.

    Not long ago, a disaffected, sociopathic youth here in Japan pushed a guy off of a platform into the path of an oncoming train. Another disturbed individual drove a car into a crowd in Akihabara and then went on a stabbing rampage. These are just the most recent incidents I can think of. What Japan likes in chronic violent crime it seems to make up in acute killing sprees. Of course, as the Virginia Tech massacre showed, it's not just in Japan. I guess we can add terrorist attacks in our modern age, and I don't think any particular place is a haven from those.

    Earthquakes, of course, can happen at any time. Fires, floods, tsunami, and the usual natural disasters. Accidents, too. Someone stepping out in front of a car, or falling down a flight of stairs.

    In daily life, the ability to read both other people and a particular situation overall is extremely important. The empathy to understand what the other person wants, and how it doesn't really conflict with my wants and needs can make all the difference. And whatever we do ripples out to the people around us, causing changes minor and major.

    What training in heiho gives me is training in a full engagement with the world, an awareness and preparedness that is not self-absorbed paranoia or irrational fear of a violent encounter. I've had doubts about my ability to act when action is needed, to think calmly when calm rationality is needed, and heiho trains those abilities. I will never pick up a sword against some swordsman in anger, and you know, it's certainly possible that in a real swordfight I'd be cut to shreds. But if the clear thinking and free body movement it trains saves my life, allows me to aid assistance to others, and/or get out of self-interested zero-sum engagements and find solutions that are beneficial for both myself and my environment (as indeed, I AM my environment), then it will all be worth it.

    A core, perhaps THE core philosophy of the school I study is "Don't defeat other schools. Defeat today the person you were yesterday." If "other schools" find this silly mamby-pamby, well, I can live with that.

    As for kata, before I joined my school, I read everything at Koryu.com, the Skoss' three book series, Ellis Amdur's "Duelling with O-Sensei", and countless posts here at E-Budo. I thought I had a pretty good idea about how they worked and their usefulness. Actually learning them, though, has deepened my appreciation for their elegant sophistication a hundred-fold. It is especially fascinating and heartening to see the kata continue to teach and inform even 30- and 40-year students. That's deep.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

  6. #51
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    Good post Josh, as usual. I'm glad to see that you're finding what you were looking for. There're many layers to the onion... some very subtle and some not so subtle. "Today's practice must kill yesterday's practice."

    Peaceful, Safe, and Joyful Holidays to all...
    Chuck Clark
    Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
    http://www.jiyushinkai.org

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Green View Post
    Oh, and does everyone now see why i did not want to mention my school?

    Paul Green
    No, not really. And I find that curious. I'm not at all interested in the sparring vs waza debate. It's been done too many times. A search of the archives would reveal all the arguements on both sides.

    I am interested in why you would tell us your real name, but refuse to tell us the style you practice. I understand why you wouldn't want your sensei to find out you've been questioning his instruction in a public forum. It shows a certain lack of trust in him and his instruction. But you've divulged your real name in the process. This community is pretty small. The odds are pretty high that word will get back to him eventually either when he reads the forum, or someone else brings it to his attention. It's not generally safe to assume that posts to these forums will not get back to others within your school. This reality is probably why the forums have gotten to be so civil over the last few years.

    Of course it is possible that Paul Green is not your real name, but then that would be against the forum rules and you are likely to be banned in short order if you admit to it. If it is your real name, you might want to put some thought into how to talk to your sensei about it.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  8. #53
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    I am interested in why you would tell us your real name, but refuse to tell us the style you practice.
    Actually, I think Paul is trying to protect his school and teacher by not revealing the name. Nothing very complicated about it. I think it is just a case of a relative beginner not wanting to have his "enthusiasm" somehow backfire on his school.

    It's not generally safe to assume that posts to these forums will not get back to others within your school.
    Any sempai that takes the role seriously wouldn't run to teacher to tattle. Juniors or outsiders shouldn’t even consider it. You (I certainly) would have a word with Paul about how sensei feels about internet budo and make sure someone so junior didn't get raked over the coals. Truth be told, if there had been discussions about the Internet and postings prior to this in the dressing room and I didn't fill Paul in on how our dojo does it, I would take some of the blame as his senior. (If I did fill him in and he then ignored the norms, that would be different.)

    Your job is to nurture the young, not feed them to the big dog. Anything that can be handled by seniors should be. This isn't necessarily something that the head of a dojo would need to handle. (I don't really see it as out and out questioning of the teacher, but simply growing pains. Depending on the culture and make-up of one's particular dojo, this forum may be a viable choice to bounce ideas off.)

    Certainly there are some things that need to be kicked upstairs, but I’m not sure a posting like this is one of them. If the teacher finds out on his own, I would think it would be turned into something didactic rather than an opportunity to trash a six-month student. Case by case, though.

    Kevin Cantwell
    Last edited by K. Cantwell; 4th December 2008 at 22:31.

  9. #54
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    I agree with Mr. Cantwell. Mr. Green hasn't come here to rehash old sparring vs. kata debates, he came here with an honest desire for information. His doubts were perfectly normal, particularly if he went in without a full understanding of classical Japanese pedagogy. This is not matter of "lack of trust in [his teacher] and his instruction" -- no student in this day and age should take it as a matter of trust that his instructor would be a capable swordsman in an actual fight. No one, including the teacher, can ever really know. So, seeking outside perspectives from a neutral party is, IMO, entirely acceptable. I don't think there's anything to tattle on. Even if the sensei himself read the posts, I don't think there's anything to get upset about.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer View Post
    Even if the sensei himself read the posts, I don't think there's anything to get upset about.
    I agree with Kevin and Josh-- there would be a way to go on these forums behind your sensei's back and ask certain questions that would be highly improper. But what Mr. Green did, IMHO, was not that way. Then again, part of being in a koryu is learning by feel what is permissible and what is impermissible as far as etiquette goes.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  11. #56
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    Thanks for being so supportive.

    I am not so worried about my sensei or sempai finding out. I trust them, and they would take it well.


    Thank you
    Paul Green

  12. #57
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    There is a really simple answer as to why they don't teach you 'one on one'.... you don't know enough not to be dangerous. I am not being rude and will try and explain.... how well can you control your kissaki? Can you stop it PRECISELY to within a millimetre of where you aimed at? A good analogy... If I give you a rifle, put an apple on your kid's head, would you have the confidence of only hitting the apple every shot at 200 yards if you started shooting, say, last month?
    I find beginners 'wander' the kissaki over a foot wide circle initially as they learn to mentally grapple with correct distance to their opponent. In my ryu it is recommended we do not learn partnerwork until 5th dan, although it is done at a basic level with bokken to give students an idea of how close their opponent is for single person practise.

    Patience,Skywalker, Patience
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  13. #58
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    I totally agree. I dont think beginners should be sparring.

    But i also think advanced students should.


    Paul Green

  14. #59
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    Paul

    Maybe...maybe not....kinda depends IMO what exactly your trying to accomplish with the sparring...what is the purpose behind it?

    Nobody is dueling with sharps anymore and my 13 year old niece with a .32 could probably kill any swordsmen alive....and maybe get a couple of his buddies as well.

    So my first question would be why "advanced students" should be sparring?.....what are they going to gain?

    Intersting....to me at any rate that those that actually used the sword in combat were, at one point, searching for ways to make the sparring MORE not LESS painful and dangerous.....as Amberger pointed out in his excellent book at one point western dueling academies were having the students fence "stripped to the waist with espically long point's d
    art"...........presumably so they would could get closer to the feel of the fear and pain and maybe the blood you could see in a "real" duel.
    I find it interesting because that seems 180 degrees from the methods we focus on today--how to make such sparring "safer.
    Chris Thomas

    "While people are entitled to their illusions, they are not entitled to a limitless enjoyment of them and they are not entitled to impose them upon others."

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    Currently on "Injured/Reserve" list due to a scathing Sarcasm pile-up.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxt View Post
    Intersting....to me at any rate that those that actually used the sword in combat were, at one point, searching for ways to make the sparring MORE not LESS painful and dangerous.
    Interesting, because I see it the other way. When the samurai were actually using the sword in combat (more or less) in the Sengoku period, you have the creation of the fukuro-shinai, so that training and matches could be done full force without maiming or death. And now that swords are no longer in use you have people trying to get away from that, be it Ellis Amdur's Araki-ryu teacher sparring with bokuto, or Hayata Yoshitatsu's habiki gekken.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

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