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Thread: Kenjutsu training

  1. #76
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    Just to restate it, i dont think people these days should be sparring with sharps.
    Its stupid and dangerous.

    Paul Green

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    Then you haven't seen this.
    Scott Halls
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul_Green View Post
    Just to restate it, i dont think people these days should be sparring with sharps.
    Its stupid and dangerous.

    Paul Green
    Speaking of which:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwLYOgYVqvA

    It's not technically sparring but it's both stupid and dangerous.
    Fredrik Hall
    "To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." /Confucius

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27 View Post
    It's not technically sparring but it's both stupid and dangerous.
    ...........

    .................

    After watching that, all I can say is that "stupid and dangerous" might be the understatement of the century. Good grief, who thought that was a good idea?

    Though I wonder if there's any way that I could talk my ex into training with that guy....
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

  5. #80
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    I find it interesting that kata are seen as fixed sequences of techniques. Occasionally my teacher gives me an idea of what kenjutsu will be like later on (when I have practised for a long time) by "adding a bit of spirit". I may know that he is going to cut shamen next, but that particular moment seems to arrive ... spontaneously. Unexpectedly.

    Once an acquaintance suggested that kata were a bit useless from a combative point of view because "you always know what's going to happen next." Anyone who knows when "what's next" is going to happen with an adept partner has attained an admirable level of prowess. I'm a long way away from "making it real" from shidachi's side, but it's nice when uchidachi offers a glimpse of what terrors await.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred27 View Post
    Speaking of which:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwLYOgYVqvA

    It's not technically sparring but it's both stupid and dangerous.
    I remember watching that video a while ago in complete disbelief. Judging from their other videos they seem to be a Japanese version of the show Jackass.

    However, they actually have done a few "sparring" videos *viewer discretion is advised*:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hysv...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ua_X...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpV9A...eature=related
    Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Heiho
    Hontai Yoshin Ryu (Study Group)
    Ishiyama Ryu

  7. #82
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    Default Another perspective

    Warner and Draeger wrote about kata in Japanese Swordsmanship, 1982:

    Kata in classical swordsmanship is the discipline of disciplines. It steels the nerves and balances the emotions so as not to disturb the serenity of mind that is so essential in swordsmanship. Kata, while teaching the particular pattern of movement and use of weapons, is also an exercise that builds stamina with a view toward endurance of pain and hardship.

    The exponent of modern disciplines involving swordsmanship (kendo, iaido), if lacking experience in classical martial disciplines (jutsu forms), cannot possibly have any true understanding of classical kata. Modern kendo, for example, does not place emphasis on kata. Moreover, any kata attached to a modern discipline is always a farrago in which the individual techniques, having been chosen from various and different sources, bear no interrelationship or, what is worse, is a newly constructed kata designed by persons who have had no hand-to-hand combat experience with the sword. The serious technical deficiency in the kata of modern disciplines is further compounded by the fact that kata practice is rarely required of exponents of those disciplines and, if taught at all, is taught by persons who have no real understanding of any inherent combative values the kata may have. Deprived of combative integrity, the kata of modern disciplines thus stand tangential to the very discipline they are said in theory to support, the disciplines being characterized more by an emphasis on "free" action directed toward sport-context applications that are far removed from the exigencies of combat.

    Genuine classical sword kata are sequences that have been extracted from successful battlefield experiences. The careful manner in which individual techniques were selected and linked together to form a meaningful combative sequence was accomplished by men who had considerable experience on the battlefield and elsewhere. In classical kata there is no preset "winner" or "loser," for any single technique executed on the part of either of the participants is designed to produce is designed to produce shobu, lethal results, if carried to conclusion. "Conclusions" are made by possible by in various clever ways without actually injuring the participant. This is accomplished mainly through control of the interval between the participants and by impacting weapon against weapon instead of weapon against the chosen target area on the victim's body.
    Kata is rooted in combat. It is foolish, however, to believe that success in kata will translate to success on the battlefield. Kata does not provide the answer to a question of how to fight. It does, however, give you the tools you need to do so. Fighting (sparring) is the practical application.
    “... there are a lot of martial artists who practice swimming in a dry field.” — Adachi Masahiro

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    Fighting (sparring) is the practical application.
    Again, though, we have a conflation of terms. "Fighting" is not "sparring."

    There is nothing "practical" about thrusting to your protected belly instead of to your unprotected throat, or any other such movement dictated by the rules of the bout and concern for your saftey. (There is more than semantics in the difference between "opponent" and "enemy.") In fact, many movements in certain sparring situations may be downright impractical if you are solely looking for combative efficacy.

    Sparring is what it is and it certainly can be an important part of training. The notion, however, that it is more "practical" than kata...well, check the search function to see how this has played out in the past.

    It is foolish, however, to believe that success in kata will translate to success on the battlefield.
    I'm not sure what you mean by "success" here. Certainly mastering the combative principles that kata teaches would (could) go a long way to preparing one for actual combat. There is no real winner or loser in kata, so success certainly wouldn't be measured by playing the "winning" side. It is about the inculcation of physical and mental principles. This was a primary pedagogical delivery system for these classical schools, so there had to be something to it in terms of preparing warriors. (Only one part, obviously. There was a lot more to it than simply training in the dojo.)

    Kevin Cantwell
    Last edited by K. Cantwell; 20th December 2008 at 23:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Wiser View Post
    It is foolish, however, to believe that success in kata will translate to success on the battlefield.
    Since there is no "winner" or "looser" in kata training, I would define "success" in kata along the lines of "practicing the kata until the movements of the school became programmed into the body to the extent that the trainee can use them successfully in actual combat." Thus, by my definition success in kata and success on the battlefield are highly linked-- though other factors, such as luck, play a role in battlefield success as well.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    there is always a winner and loser in kata. Kata is training, training leads to success on the battlefield. I'll agree with you on the luck part.

    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Wiser View Post
    The serious technical deficiency in the kata of modern disciplines is further compounded by the fact that kata practice is rarely required of exponents of those disciplines and, if taught at all, is taught by persons who have no real understanding of any inherent combative values the kata may have. Deprived of combative integrity, the kata of modern disciplines thus stand tangential to the very discipline they are said in theory to support, the disciplines being characterized more by an emphasis on "free" action directed toward sport-context applications that are far removed from the exigencies of combat.

    As usual, Mr Draeger's conclusions are... imaginative. All I'm going to say* is that this bears no relation to the way I've been taught - ie, that without combative intent & understanding, kata is meaningless. But then, I study MJER which is, by my reckoning, what he'd call a "modern discipline". I was also taught to perform kendo no kata with spirit. But if anyone wants to refer to it as "sport-context applications that are far removed from the exigencies of combat," then I can't say it really affects me or my training.

    Which is not to say that there aren't people who treat kata without due seriousness.

    ______
    * For lack of interest in sparking a debate over his work. My own opinion on the subject is as fixed as his on... a number of things.

  12. #87
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    Suhail Merchant wrote:
    As usual, Mr Draeger's conclusions are... imaginative.
    With no disrespect, I'm reminded of a young puppy trying to gnaw on the leg of a bull mastiff.
    Donn was very highly ranked in Kendo, I believe 5th or 6th dan. But equally important, this book was also authored by Gordon Warner, who is, I believe, the highest ranked non-Japanese kendo practitioner, and also very highly ranked in iaido. In other words, they were criticizing from the inside, not the outside.
    The problem is this - if one does, for example, MJER, and one's teacher asserts, "this is combative sword," how would you know differently? And if one's kendo teacher asserts that one's kendo kata are combatively effective, and that's all you've done, how would you know differently?
    That you practice with "combative intent" is estimable. That you practice with "spirit" is also estimable. But none of that establishes that what you are learning has any relationship to the combative use of the Japanese sword. It just means that your attitude is good.
    The kendo kata IS a farrago - ask your kendo teacher. If he knows the history, he will be able to break down the various ryu from which individual techniques were extracted and patched together in the "kata." MJER, though it's roots are deep in the past, no longer trains as one did when training for warfare in a medieval Japanese context. For one example, the upright posture, and the cuts in which one rises on the ball of the back foot.
    I post all this against my better judgement - it's an old subject, and although one might wish for a stake thru it's heart, it rises ever again.
    On another matter - I happen to train in one koryu in which we do include a "sparring" component. Another does not. I've found it a very useful training device, but have never confused it with real fighting.
    AND: Given that most Japanese ryu, including some of the most historically powerful did NOT include a "sparring" component, it is hubris to assert that it is NECESSARY to do such sparring to develop combative efficacy. Such an assertion reflects an ignorance of how sophisticated real kata training in a traditional ryu can be. If you've never had such training, how would you know?
    Consider this: basic training in the military does not include sparring (I'm not including BJJ or LINES - I mean that prospective soldiers do not train with paint-ball to prepare themselves for the battlefield in Iraq, and honestly, that is the equivalent of "sparring" in kenjutsu). What happens is that they learn "kata" - and then are deployed and learn to enact the forms they learned, in real life - if they survive. BAck in the day, when one wanted to test one's swordsmanship - really - one had a duel. And even this is not the same as a battlefield. The former is one-on-one, and there are rules that are formalized. That's not a battlefield, anymore than a boxing ring or "octogon" is the equivalent of walking down a street in Falluja looking for IEDs.
    BEst

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post
    Consider this: basic training in the military does not include sparring (I'm not including BJJ or LINES - I mean that prospective soldiers do not train with paint-ball to prepare themselves for the battlefield in Iraq, and honestly, that is the equivalent of "sparring" in kenjutsu). What happens is that they learn "kata" - and then are deployed and learn to enact the forms they learned, in real life - if they survive.
    Excellent post, sir. I agree with all of it. I just wanted to correct you slightly on the above written statement. I am not sure of what the conventional forces do in this respect, for I have been away from that segment of our military for nearly 6 and 1/2 years (selection and initial Special Forces training course included along with my years on an "line" group). But, we do use "paint ball" training when preparing for Afghanistan and/or Iraq. What we use is called "simunition". Because of the limited range of the paint round, we use it as a second phase of CQB training, prior to going "live" in the shoot house. But, we also use it as a "force-on-force" training tool. I'll qualify this, however, to say that while it serves to convey a sense of the fluidity of combat in close quarters, it does not account for the fear of maiming and/or death that actually is part of real combat. So, this fact, those not take away from your overall argument in that, even with "simunition" you will not really "feel" what combat is like. A Soldier hit with a "simunition" round on the shoulder will likely continue to fight as if nothing ever happened and will only account for the injury during the AAR (after action review) as the paint will be obvious. This is also partly built-in as the goal is to refine combat techniques as applied in a fluid environment. It does a Soldier no good to sit out the rest of the evolution if he is hit in the initial volley - training wise. However, the trainers can affect this by assigning rules to account for this type of attrition (and supplying "referees" as well). Again, there is no real way to replicate the fear and the anxiety of combat in training - just the techniques and the tactics and their inter-operability. Seeing other men bleeding out, or missing a hand, or literally in pieces - friendly or foe - add a totally different dimention to the experience. It should not paralize you, but it gives you something else to affect your decision making process. I could go on for a long while, but I think the point is made. Be well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post
    The problem is this - if one does, for example, MJER, and one's teacher asserts, "this is combative sword," how would you know differently? And if one's kendo teacher asserts that one's kendo kata are combatively effective, and that's all you've done, how would you know differently?
    Good point, well made. I do HNIR as well, and even though it is very different, I think the spirit is similar. But we'll see.

    And just as important, yes, this topic has been done to death before so let's leave it at that.

    Mr Perez,

    I enjoyed that post. How often is that sort of training done, and when was it started? Is it specifically a response to a need for specialized training for Iraq & Afghanistan?

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    First I'd like to say it's good to see you posting again. Seems like it's been awhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellis Amdur View Post
    The problem is this - if one does, for example, MJER, and one's teacher asserts, "this is combative sword," how would you know differently? And if one's kendo teacher asserts that one's kendo kata are combatively effective, and that's all you've done, how would you know differently?
    And how is this issue different from any other school? I'm sure that Araki Ryu, Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu, Mugai Ryu, and all the various other schools have the same working foundation? At a certain level, aren't we all essentially taking it on faith?
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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