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Thread: Meeting your Sensei outside of the Dojo....

  1. #1
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    Default Meeting your Sensei outside of the Dojo....

    If i run into my Sensei out side of the dojo at Walmart how would i greet him and how would i introduce him to my wife?

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    Most sensei that I've had-- the ones worth the title, at least-- wanted to be addressed by name, not by title, outside the dojo.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    I'm a member of a pretty small dojo and we are a pretty tight group. We call our teachers by first names, and I consider them not only close friends, but like family. We socialize quite a bit (though not as much as we would like since we are spread-out distance wise).

    However, when the head teacher of our line comes in from Seattle (or when we go visit him) for seminars, we always address him as "Sensei," even at dinner or something like that. I'm quite sure he never made any demands it be done like that, it just seems the thing to do. (I observed seniors do it, so I do it.)

    Now, I've heard people address him by his first name numerous times (I've done it on occasion) and he never batted an eye or made a big deal of it, so it probably matters more to us than it does to him.

    I guess the answer is it depends on the culture of your dojo. If I were you, I would ask a senior or observe next time your dojo has an outing.

    Kevin Cantwell

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    Calling my sensei here in Japan anything other than "sensei" in any occasion would feel weird.

    Calling my sensei in America "sensei" outside the dojo would feel weird.

    As always, the idiom is paramount to me.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

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    In the States..

    Mr. or Mrs. (last name).

    Or first name if thats what they desired.

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    I have a story for you. About 8 yrs ago, I hosted a seminar w/ a very high ranking Goju instructor. After the seminar we all went out to eat at a Thai Restraunt. When we walked in, & took our seats, the waitress asked which one of you is the Sensei. We all pointed, and said he is. The waitress throughout the whole meal called him Sensei. It was weird that the waitress knew we trained, but, it seemed perfectly natural to call him Sensei.
    When I introduce my wife to various Sensei, I say this is so N So Sensei. They will then either say my name is so N So, or my wife will ask, may I call you your name? It's never been a problem. It also depends on your relationship w/ your instructor, as well. Each situation is different, & I think in order to answer that question, we'd have to know more about your relationship w/ your Sensei.

    David

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    "Show as much honor as they demand, and as you can stand." - Black Paladin 3:16
    Terry Miller

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    Default thank you

    thank you for all the replies, i t has only been one week since i started, 5 classes, so im the NKOTB but i will ask some of the higher ranks next class.

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    In Shorinji Kempo the rule has been that Sensei is addressed as such both in and out of the dojo. A very Japanese attitude. However, while I will do that for my sensei and his, outside the dojo I told my students my name is "Dirk". However, if they wanted to they could call me "Sensei" under all conditions, and that they should refer to all other senseis by their title. I am not Japanese and I do not subscribe to Japanese culture, esp not the eternal pecking order.

    Dirk

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    Quote Originally Posted by dirk.bruere View Post
    In Shorinji Kempo the rule has been that Sensei is addressed as such both in and out of the dojo. A very Japanese attitude.
    And that type of system works great in Japan, where you can call everyone from your dentist to your son's high school algebra teacher "sensei" when you meet them in public and no one thinks anything of it. In English-speaking countries, anytime you call someone a "sensei" it's only going to be linked to martial arts, and in the minds of most people will invoke every bad Hollywood martial arts flick that they've ever seen. That's one of the reasons that I'm not a huge fan of the general practice of using the term outside the dojo. "Sensei" is a Japanese term of respect, and appropriate in a Japanese context-- which includes training. But when I'm in an American context-- such as bumping into a teacher at the supermarket-- then there are plenty of ways to show respect in a western context without doing anything that stands out so blatantly.

    That's not to criticize Shorinji Kempo policy, of course; if that's y'all's system, then I'm sure it works for you.
    David Sims

    "Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - Terry Pratchet

    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DDATFUS View Post
    And that type of system works great in Japan, where you can call everyone from your dentist to your son's high school algebra teacher "sensei" when you meet them in public and no one thinks anything of it. In English-speaking countries, anytime you call someone a "sensei" it's only going to be linked to martial arts, and in the minds of most people will invoke every bad Hollywood martial arts flick that they've ever seen. That's one of the reasons that I'm not a huge fan of the general practice of using the term outside the dojo. "Sensei" is a Japanese term of respect, and appropriate in a Japanese context-- which includes training. But when I'm in an American context-- such as bumping into a teacher at the supermarket-- then there are plenty of ways to show respect in a western context without doing anything that stands out so blatantly.

    That's not to criticize Shorinji Kempo policy, of course; if that's y'all's system, then I'm sure it works for you.
    Well, it's a combination of factors.
    First, the major force behind the development of Shorinji Kempo in the UK is Sensei Mizuno, who you might guess, is Japanese. Hence a Japanese way of doing things was introduced, largely because SK had only a very small presence before he arrived. *Everyone* calls him sensei. This, of course, perpetuated itself through his students and so on.

    Second, there is a belief that there should be a certain formality - and social gap - between teacher and student. Again, largely part of the Japanese culture, but one I agree with when in the dojo. However, it can be argued (from a Western perspective) that the dojo is only a small part of "real life" and such formality can be set aside. Again, I would agree with this, in the West. The problem is that SK started life as a religiously inspired organisation and really does aspire to be a "way of life", so there is an added social complication in that context. However, it is not a religious org in the West.

    Third, there is a subtext of Senpai and kōhai
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...and_k.C5.8Dhai
    In Japanese society one is forever sandwiched between the two - your senior is always your senior, and junior is always junior. It is this that I dislike.
    I'm much more Western and egalitarian, and recognise that while there may be a solid and permanent master/student relationship in the dojo, this does not necessarily carry over into the rest of life.

    Dirk

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    There is an added factor of "naming identity", to coin a phrase. For example, when I was learning Japanese in college in classes where English was not allowed, we got to know each other as "Reyer-san" (or rather, Raiyaa-san), "Sumisu-san", and so on. This got very weird when we started to interact with each other outside of class, which of course demanded an American context. There was kind of a progression, from "Raiyaa-san" and "Sumisu-san" to "Reyer-san" and "Smith-san", and eventually to "Josh" and "Colleen". Likewise, when you get to know someone as "Sensei" in a particular context, say the dojo, and you interact with them largely in that context, it can be weird, even difficult, to change to a different form of address.

    In Japanese society one is forever sandwiched between the two - your senior is always your senior, and junior is always junior. It is this that I dislike.
    I'm much more Western and egalitarian, and recognise that while there may be a solid and permanent master/student relationship in the dojo, this does not necessarily carry over into the rest of life.
    Well, it's important to keep in mind that sempai/kohai is simply a contextual cue, not a strict, binding role one must forever play.

    When beginning students of Japanese first learn the honorifics (formal and casual), they imagine a progression. "-san" with people the just met, "-kun" or "-chan" when they become friends, and then names only without honorifics when the relationships get really close. It then throws them for a loop that husbands and wives may continue to refer to each other, directly and indirectly by various combinations of first name/last name and honorifics such as "-san", "-chan", and "-kun". They tend to interpret it as coldness or distance in the relationship, even though for the happily married couple it's just a normal form of address.

    Likewise, "sempai/kohai", and indeed "sensei/deshi" may seem like a rigid structure one must fit into, but in reality one can be in a close relationship, filled with mutual respect and regard, and still retain the sempai/kohai dynamic. There are no hard and fast rules, like, "Well, I'd like to be friendly with Kenji because we really hit it off, but I can't because he's my kohai." One can, in fact, use honorifics and polite speech markers and still engage in a close, intimate relationship, let alone interact in a friendly fashion outside the dojo.

    Or to put it another way, many of our friends tend to be a few years younger or older than us. If one interprets sempai/kohai rigidly, this would mean that no one in Japan could make friends from school or work except with people their own age/school year/date of hire. In fact, this is not the case - Japanese people often have friends of varying ages and position. But it's just one factor among many that determine how they treat each other.

    (And, of course, while such roles are fairly defined and obvious in school, they are generally not so important in dojo for adults.)
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

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