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Thread: iaijutsu and kenjutsu

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    Default iaijutsu and kenjutsu

    Hi guys

    I was hoping someone could help me out here. I have had contact on another site with someone who is eluding, I say eluding as my question are never outrightly answered, to be learning Okinawan iaijutsu and kenjutsu. I have been unable to find any information about sword schools from Okinawa, but I thought someone here would be far more likely to have answers.
    John Ranford
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai

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    Default Iaijutsu & Kenjutsu

    All,

    I learned a form/method of Iaijutsu from Toma Shian, who in turn had learned it from Uehara Seikichi of Motobu-Ryu fame. However, it (in my view) is rather simplistic and doesn't appear to be related to any main island Japanese ryu/ha.

    Roy J. Hobbs

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    Hamamoto Hisao Sensei teaches his family style of Batto Do at the Okinawa Prefectual Budokan, as well as Mugai Ryu Iaido.

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    Perhaps these videos of Uehara Seikichi Sensei (Motobu-ryu - Udundi) wielding a katana might be of interest:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkRkzOPc5Bs
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmUEDqqj8hQ (see 2 minutes into the video)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-YPnPl-uM (see 2 minutes into the video)

    All the best,
    Steven



    ---
    Steven Resell

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    Default Iaijutsu & Kenjutsu

    That's essentially the sword technique I was taught by Toma Shian.

    Roy J. Hobbs

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    I was at this mans home/sword shop in 2005.Top of the line stuff. http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?s...6&archive=true

    Tom Hodges

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dentokan View Post
    All,

    I learned a form/method of Iaijutsu from Toma Shian, who in turn had learned it from Uehara Seikichi of Motobu-Ryu fame. However, it (in my view) is rather simplistic and doesn't appear to be related to any main island Japanese ryu/ha.

    Roy J. Hobbs
    Thanks for the replies guys, I have checked out a few of the names and ryu mentioned in your messages and are a little confused.

    Firstly a question to Roy. Do you have any links to more (reliable) information on Motobu-ryu. The links I have found so far do not really mention weapons at all, simply un-armed combat. Do you have any idea if these elements were added later. The only reason I ask, is not to make comments about adding to a particular curriculum later, but because I am trying to get a sense of if there were, historically, any sword schools, rather that karate-do schools with some sword work added in (especially if it was later).

    Secondly, after a few searches about Hamamoto Hisao Sensei I came to some (very limited) information about Koden Hachiman Ryu Batto jutsu. This information was given along with Okinawa Mugai Ryu iaido.

    From what I understood, Mugai-ryu iai was founded by Tsuji Gattan Sakemochi, who originated from Shiga prefecture and later moved to Kyoto to train in the sword arts. So I am unsure where the Okinawan part comes from, unless this is a different ryu (can anyone confirm this?).

    It was interesting in the first video that they were "wearing" the sword blade down, or "upside-down" with reference to most other iai schools I have had contact with so far. It might suggest links to tachi rather than katana.
    John Ranford
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai

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    I may be incorrect but I think I remember Hamamoto sensei saying that Muguai Ryu was a style he had trained in for quite some time but what he shared with my group when we were there was his family style. I do not remember if he named his family style or not but I do remember that he is relocated from mailand Japan. I was under the impression that his styles are Japanese and not Okinawan.

    I seem to recall drawings of the Motobu castle guards using bo and sword.But I do not remember for sure where those drawings were. I think it was at Shuri castle.

    Tom Hodges

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    Hamamoto san is with one of the Mugai Ryu Iaido Kais, but I am not sure which one, Kuroda Sensei might know. I received one of his curriculum manuals at one point a few years ago. But, it is not "Okinawan Mugai Ryu"...he is the OKinawa representative for his kai.

    Suimokai has a representative in Okinawa here. http://www.ryufukai.jp/

    As Hobbs sensei mentioned, the only indigenous Okinawan iai art is a compulsory facet of the Motobu Udundi Kobujutsu curriculum. If you are interested, my teacher in Koza might be taking students...

    Best

    Rob Rivers
    Rob Rivers

  10. #10

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    The iai of Motobu Ryu does several things that are not typical in Japanese ryu ha:

    *The sword is in fact "upside down". In the case of kiri age, the timing is in fact faster if the saya is already turned. In motobu ryu this is facilitated because the
    *sword is oftentimes not carried in the belt. Again, the timing is faster if the saya is brought to the tekki.

    There are a lot of other nuances such as the saya being being actively used as a part of the waza, but suffice to stay study of the art in full is needed to really appreciate any of it.

    Best

    Rob Rivers
    Rob Rivers

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    There are two divisions to Motobu Ryu, one of which is the Kempo Karate that comes from Choki Motobu and the Udun di that allegedly comes from Choyu Motobu via Seikichi Uehara.
    The later although starting with unarmed forms is according to Seikichi Uehara primarily a weapons based art or a Kobujutsu. It has three levels, the first of which is empty handed, the second level encompasses a variety of weapons and the third level is unarmed against weapons. see further the article Florence, R (1996) An interview with Uehara Seikichi on the Motobu Ryu Udun Di Bujutsu in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts Volume 5 No. 3 pages 67-89. Also see Joe Swifts translation of Matsuo Kanenori Sakon (2005) The Secret Royal Martial Arts of Ryukyu. Published by Books on Demand GmbH. An interview with Kanenori Sakon also appears in Classical Fighting Arts Issue No. 4 on pages 20-24. Some further information on Bladed weapons in Okinawa making specific reference to Motobu Udun di and Bugeikan can be found in articles written by Mark Bishop in Bugeisha Magazine back issues No.4 Winter 1997 & No. 5 Spring 1998 there is also a section on the Ti styles in his Okinawan Karate book. The general claim by the Motobu Udun Di people is that the bladed weapons have always been there, this is in fact quite unlikely and there is little verifiable proof that there were any sword schools as such practising any form of Iai Jutsu or Iaido in Okinawa. It certainly also needs to be noted that Seikichi Uehara who originally taught the sword of Motobu Udun Di did not come back from the Philippines until 1947, after the war. There has been some speculation that Bushi Matsumura practised Jigen Ryu and may have passed it on in Okinawa, but alas so far there is little solid verfiable evidence to support this proposition. However do see the article by Meik Skoss entitled Questions and Answers. Ryukyu Kobudo vs Nihon Kobudo (1998) in The Iaido Newsletter Vol 10 the Iaido journal which compares Ryukyu and Nihon Kobudo. The link is at http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/97tin98.htm

    You may also be interested in the following two videos on Youtube, which shows the Bugeikan demonstrations done at the ptrefectural Okinawan Budokan where some Iaido based on Motobu Udun Di is demonstrated. The links are here:

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=iw9-WFBXKfo
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=77NjFzk2Tu8

    Regards
    Last edited by Katsujinken; 8th December 2008 at 17:56.
    Chris Norman

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    Default okinawan sword

    There was a gentleman connected with the Kenshinkan who was teaching what he called Iai Nuke, the draw was earth to heaven or edge down (Tachi style) the handle for the blade seemed to be a bit short, about hand and a half in lenght

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    Beer Iaijutsu & Kenjutsu

    John,

    You asked:

    Firstly a question to Roy. Do you have any links to more (reliable) information on Motobu-ryu. The links I have found so far do not really mention weapons at all, simply un-armed combat. Do you have any idea if these elements were added later. The only reason I ask, is not to make comments about adding to a particular curriculum later, but because I am trying to get a sense of if there were, historically, any sword schools, rather that karate-do schools with some sword work added in (especially if it was later).

    I'm afraid I really can't add anything to what Chris Norman wrote. My study of Motobu-Ryu sword was not from a historian's perspective, but was as a student accepting what his teacher was giving him.

    Cheers!

    Roy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dentokan View Post
    John,

    You asked:

    Firstly a question to Roy. Do you have any links to more (reliable) information on Motobu-ryu. The links I have found so far do not really mention weapons at all, simply un-armed combat. Do you have any idea if these elements were added later. The only reason I ask, is not to make comments about adding to a particular curriculum later, but because I am trying to get a sense of if there were, historically, any sword schools, rather that karate-do schools with some sword work added in (especially if it was later).

    I'm afraid I really can't add anything to what Chris Norman wrote. My study of Motobu-Ryu sword was not from a historian's perspective, but was as a student accepting what his teacher was giving him.

    Cheers!

    Roy
    Cheers Roy, I have a tendency to ask too many questions!

    Thanks for all the replies.
    John Ranford
    兵法二天一流剣術 - 無双直伝英信流居合
    Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iai

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    Please note a specific difference to Japanese mainland ryuha, that is Ryukyu 1) manufactured some of its own weapons and 2) acquired others from
    a) China and b) Japan. Point is many of the sword blades came from Japan, but the handles were of Ryukyuan design to facilitate wielding the swords with one hand. You can see this peculiarity in the Iai of Motobu Udundi.
    BTW, I met one older guy of Motobu Udundi. He told me he started training at 5 years of age or so and was around 50 years at the time. He said, they do not have any western students. Comments???
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

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