Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 55

Thread: Does the Black belt mean anything anymore?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    37
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Does the Black belt mean anything anymore?

    When I was a kid I trained in Shotokan and the Black belts were like celebrities to me and others. The friends I had that had black belts were untouchable. Last week I toured some of the Dojos in my neighborhood (Granada hills ca). 99% of the Dojos around here are Tae Kwon Do.
    The first Dojo I entered had two black belts both about 13. This gave me concern. I sat and watched them work and was not impressed. No snap, no power, no focus.
    The second I entered was an all black belt class and all adults. I thought what a treat for me to watch. One of the female black belts couldn't throw a high round house with out holding on to the bar. The whole class looked like beginners or intermediate. I wanted to ask the sensei about it but I knew if I did it would be a complete insult to him.
    The last dojo of interest was a Krav Maga. Again a class of mostly Black belts. They had country music playing in the back ground. The instructor looked good and I think could hold his own, but the rest of the class spent their time chasing each other around the mat instead of engaging.
    This all leads to my question of concern. How do you judge a dojo? I am at a Dojo now that I have concerns about. I see people test and pass and I question if they should. What keeps me their is the fact that their Black Belts ALL impress me. So I figure they are doing something right to produce the end product.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Posts
    314
    Likes (received)
    0

    Post

    I'd say that if you enter a legitimate BJJ school, a black belt will be a "black belt" and you will rarely - if ever - find a 13 year old black belt unless he can submit other black belts.

    My ninpo instructor told me that back in the days when Bujinkan was kind of new - but not that new - and Genbukan was just beginning, black belts were very hard to come by and that getting one was the result of very tough training and those few had that a ninpo black belt were kind of an elite group (because of how rare it was). Don't know how it is now. But, every art has its phases. Eventually, BJJ may go the same route. That being the case, things may swing back the other way too.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I still remember when I started out in Taekwondo at 13 - we were taught kicks of course, but it was more split along the lines of 25% techniques and 75% conditioning. Squat hop races, frog-jump races, wheel-barrel races, sit-ups after sit-ups and whatever plyometric exercises our teacher came up with at the time. I never asked him why we did all the conditioning exercises because even back then it was rather obvious to me and the other kids that you needed to have good balance, strength, and flexibility if you ever wanted to throw a good kick or punch.

    Unfortunately, in modern times, the act of receiving the black belt itself now outweighs the importance of the physical efforts required for earning it.

    Jim Yang

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    37
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skylinerR32 View Post
    Unfortunately, in modern times, the act of receiving the black belt itself now outweighs the importance of the physical efforts required for earning it.

    Jim Yang
    Jim thank you for that. In one of my TKD classes their is a red belt who is overweight and very out of shape. He makes it through class but I always thing.
    If this guy was in shape how much better would he be?
    and of course how did he get through the testing being out of shape?
    Is the testing different for different people? Do they modify it on your ability?
    I know every time I go to test they all ways mention three things. 1. How long since my last test 2. How many classes I have attended 3. How well I know the material. It bothers me because all I care about is how well do I know the material.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Akron, OH
    Posts
    65
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    "I wouldn't join a club that would have me as a member."--Groucho Marx

    I would never want to be associated with a McDojo. You would be better off approaching one of the black belts and paying for individualized training sessions.

    The business of martial arts clouds the way on the true paths.
    Terry Miller

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kristiansand, Norway
    Posts
    43
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    McDojos aside, comparing "black belts" between arts isn't really feasible. I think it was Kim Taylor that wrote an interesting piece on how the only two ranks that matter are: the one that allows you to teach and the one that allows you to issue rank. (Paraphrasing from memory here, feel free to correct me or dig up the article.)
    TSKSR - Kakudokan Kristiansand
    Kendo - Kristiansand Kendoklubb

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    If this guy was in shape how much better would he be?
    and of course how did he get through the testing being out of shape?
    Is the testing different for different people? Do they modify it on your ability?
    You bring up a good point. When I studied traditional Japanese Karate for a bit I noticed that there were those who entered the school looking to shape up and learn the art and those who were in pretty good shape to begin with and picked up the material without too much difficulty.

    I'm of the opinion that if someone who possesses a physical disability truly and honestly wants to learn the art and devotes 110% effort towards the endeavor, there always needs to be consideration of how physical limits (e.g. moderate to heavy asthma, prior major surgeries) might impact performance use of techniques - otherwise, if I'm perfectly healthy and just lazy and way out-of-shape, I'd be wondering why some low ranked yellow belt is beating the tar out of me in sparring when I'm the guy one step away from a black belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    I know every time I go to test they all ways mention three things. 1. How long since my last test 2. How many classes I have attended 3. How well I know the material. It bothers me because all I care about is how well do I know the material.
    Attendance is suppose to be a gauge of how theoretically ready a person is for advancement testing, but in this day and age I seriously believe that most places - I'm talking about the McDojos here - test for the money. When I studied Taekwondo I would ask my instructor when I could test for the next belt and and the next, and his answer would invariably be the same: "When I tell you that you're ready for it. In the meantime, just keep practicing."

    I have no problems with a set schedule for testing as long as the possibility for the student to fail a test actually exists - in most Karate and Taekwondo places today it remains possible for a student to test and not perform to adequate standards and yet still pass because he/she paid the testing fee. Now, if a student knew that failure was indeed a possible outcome, how much harder would that person work towards passing?

    Jim Yang

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    186
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    This is an interesting topic, something that I have personally had problems with in the past. I received my blackbelt in TKD when I was only about 10. It does give a sense of inflated self confidence for sure. But you eventually mature out of it.

    I call this problem 'belt inflation'. I recently received my 4th dan at 20 years old. After the hard work and time put into getting it, I consider it equivalent to a 'true' first black belt. So in taekwondo, I view getting a 4th dan = 1st dan. I have since left taekwondo and learn Judo instead.

    BJJ and Judo have good quality control. I've been in Judo for quite some time, but until I compete and win enough points I will not be able to go further. Pretty good system.
    -John Nguyen

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    37
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Fredheim View Post
    McDojos aside, comparing "black belts" between arts isn't really feasible.
    That is a very interesting statement. I am not debating it, just trying to digest it. One assumes that no matter what art your training in once you reach the level of Black belt you are fairly competent in the art. One who does not train would assume your bad ass. One who teaches Martial arts might say your ready to start learning.

    All that a side, then how do you judge a DOJO. I spent a couple of days touring DOJO's in my neighborhood and was not impressed. I have seen people pass tests that I did not think should pass, but who am I to judge. I also have see positive it is suppose to be fairly impossible for anyone under 18 to obtain a black belt here. I know some who have trained for 15 years. They tell me the average time for an adult is 6 to 7 years.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    All that a side, then how do you judge a DOJO. I spent a couple of days touring DOJO's in my neighborhood and was not impressed. I have seen people pass tests that I did not think should pass, but who am I to judge. I also have see positive it is suppose to be fairly impossible for anyone under 18 to obtain a black belt here. I know some who have trained for 15 years. They tell me the average time for an adult is 6 to 7 years.
    Personal Criteria for Judging a Dojo (not in any ranking order):
    1. Teacher-student ratio
    2. Technical competency and emotional maturity of the head instructor
    3. Does the instructor take time to break down and explain techniques (even if it' just a reminder for long time, advanced students) and drill in the basics until they become muscle-memory?
    4. Speed, power, and fluidity of motion demonstrated by the movements of advanced students in both forms and sparring

    Those of us who have been around long enough to be a part of good dojos realize very quickly what quality truly means when we leave and enter another not quite what I had last time dojos.

    6 to 7 years for shodan sounds about the same as what my Taekwondo instructor told me was the typical average for him grant someone a black belt. He said that the sole exception he had was a guy who earned it in 4 years flat - of course the guy was also a full-time triathlete who went to class 4-5 days a week.

    FYI, when people ask about my black belt I just tell them “Basically, this means I graduated highschool. And no, I wasn’t on the honor roll or anywhere near the top of the class. I got C+s on most days and on really good ones, B+s”

    Jim Yang

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Kristiansand, Norway
    Posts
    43
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    One assumes that no matter what art your training in once you reach the level of Black belt you are fairly competent in the art. One who does not train would assume your bad ass. One who teaches Martial arts might say your ready to start learning.
    I think that is the problem: everyone has their own ideal what a black belt should be, and judge other schools/styles against that ideal. But that doesn't really work, as a black belt isn't a standard certificate of badassery.

    Now within the framework of a style, it's a whole other thing. If instructors award belts based on attendance, good behaviour and fees paid instead of technical skill, that can only be detrimental to the art. I agree with Nii's opinion on BJJ and Judo, I think the system ensures the overall quality of the black belts.
    TSKSR - Kakudokan Kristiansand
    Kendo - Kristiansand Kendoklubb

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Victoria, Texas
    Posts
    145
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I absolutly love this topic and the candor and maturity of the posters here. I had an open house for our new DOjo in Victoria Texas yesterday. One of the visitors approached me with a series of questions that surprised me. He asked me how my training would compare to that of a person he knew teaching Judo at a Kung Fu school. The teacher had been training in Judo for 2 years?!?!?!(I've been doing Judo/Jujitsu for decades). He wanted to know if my ranking system would get him to Black Belt quicker than his. I informed him that Belts, especially Black Belt ranking came slow due to the volume of material and my expectation of proficiency as an Instructor. I informed him that it would be a minimum of 41/2- 5 years at a minimum of regular training. Brown Belts have to serve a year of Instructor internship prior to consideration for Shodan testing. I then graciously told him that this type of Dojo may not be for him if he wanted a quick Black Belt. Long live OLD SCHOOL and the tradition that keeps quality alive in the Martial Arts. It is not just about the money but the forging of a lifestyle.
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    37
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Today I look my kids to a local Christmas parade. All of my children ages 9-11-13 years old study Motobu Ryu and so do I. In the Parade their were at least 3 Dojo's. Each one of the Dojo's had black belts the same age as my children. This opened a line of questioning especially from my 9 year old. He wanted to know how come he was not a black bet yet? How is it possible that they are so many young Black belts in the other Dojo's when at ours their are none under the age of 18. I tried to explain it the best I could to him. He tried to understand but I know he did not want to. He just wanted to be able to say he is a black belt. I know that I need to regroup my thoughts and have a talk with him so he understands that the belt is not what is important. But I am not sure I will be able to explain it to him until he is more mature.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    33
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    In the Parade their were at least 3 Dojo's. Each one of the Dojo's had black belts the same age as my children. This opened a line of questioning especially from my 9 year old. He wanted to know how come he was not a black bet yet? How is it possible that they are so many young Black belts in the other Dojo's when at ours their are none under the age of 18.
    I don't have kids, but if I did, I'd just pop this movie (3:06 and 6:06 have the best lines of this segment) into the DVD player and let the life lessons on why at the end of the day the black belt (or any colored belt) does not and cannot confer any abilities you haven't earned through hard work and diligence.

    Can a 9 or 11 year old earn a black belt ? Yes, but the only one that I've ever encountered that had such ranking AND the relevant abilities associated with the rank had also been training since 3 years old with his father and two brothers who were all running a full-time TKD dojang.

    Bruce Lee never earned any belt that I'm aware of (in fact, I'm pretty sure he had no real faith or interest in ranking in the least). Miyamoto Musashi never had any formal ranking that I've read about. And the brutal effectivenss of Mas Oyama resulted largely from his self-secluded mountain training, not some rank awarded inside a dojo.

    Hey Rick, Big CONGRATULATIONS!!! on the opening of your dojo. Sorry us Fort Worth folks could not make it down for the celebration - if plans to host Jose and company for January at your new place are still on, I'll definitely travel down with him.

    Jim Yang

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Victoria, Texas
    Posts
    145
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hey Jim, so good to hear from you. Good post on the topic.
    I have 4 sons and all have trained and crosstrained with me and other teachers and hold high mudansha rank but still have no Shodan rank, even though a few of them possess the technical proficiency. They must do it just like everybody else- blood, sweat, tears, and not always in that order as well as maturity and time in grade.
    Jim, we will be hosting the next Roppokai gathering the last weekend in January. Jose will be coming down. You are welcome to stay with us if you wish.
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •