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Thread: Does the Black belt mean anything anymore?

  1. #16
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    Thank you for your hospitality Rick - I'll definitely take you up on it for the Roppokai seminar

    As for the topic at hand, I remembered a quote from Michael Crichton's novel, Jurassic Park when I read it waaaay back in junior high that struck me as relevant to this thread:

    "Most kinds of power require a substantial sacrifice by whoever wants the power. There is an apprenticeship, a discipline lasting many years. Whatever kind of power you want. President of the company. Black belt in karate. Spiritual guru. Whatever it is you seek, you have to put in the time, the practice, the effort. You must give up a lot to get it. It has to be very important to you. And once you have attained it, it is your power. It can't be given away: it resides in you. It is literally the result of your discipline.

    Now, what is interesting about this process is that, by the time someone has acquired the ability to kill with his bare hands, he has also matured to the point where he won't use it unwisely. So that kind of power has a built-in control. The discipline of getting the power changes you so that you won't abuse it.

    But scientific power is like inherited wealth: attained without discipline. You read what others have done, and you take the next step. You can do it very young. You can make progress very fast. There is no discipline lasting many decades. There is no mastery: old scientists are ignored. There is no humility before nature. There is only a get-rich-quick, make-a-name-for-yourself-fast philosophy. Cheat, lie, falsify - it doesn't matter. Not to you, or to your colleagues. No one will criticize you. No one has any standards. They are all trying to do the same thing: to do something big, and do it fast."

    Food for thought.

    Jim Yang

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    Default interestingly enough...

    I'm in Korea, and have trained in Tae Kwon Do in my youth. It's interesting to point out that last year there was an expose here about how easily some of the TKD dojang's are giving out black belts. Kukkiwon was scandalized a bit, they had some guy on TV saying that the organisation was giving them out easier as a result of pressure from kids parents and because of money issues. It is supposedly also a result of Tae Kwon Do being turned into a sport, no longer an art. Most dojang's here don't teach breaking anymore and train people on hitting on a point basis. The original Tae Kwon Do can more likely be found in the states from previous practitioners who learned it when it was still strictly a martial art. Most Koreans in the army have to learn it, but it's only for a few weeks. They consider the hardcore martial art to be TuKong Moosul, taught to the special forces here. Regardless, most Koreans have actually trained in Tae Kwon Do. Actually, the North Korean Tae Kwon Do is the best, they really train there, many people learn and train to kill with a single kick, which they should be able to do in multiple attacker situations. I have seen a few videos of demo for their Tae Kwon Do team, they're wicked. Here, in South Korea, they also have what they call Pro Tae Kwon Do, which is supposed to be closer to the original, but it's still a bit watered down compared to the North Korean method.
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    Brendan Lanza

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    When I began training in JKA Shotokan in the mid 1970's, it was understood by all that passing the shodan exam only meant two things, that you could now wear a black belt and that you had an understanding of basic techniques. It took 3 to 5 years of regular training to get to the point of being allowed to take the test.
    In those days the training was very hard. I left every class with something either bleeding, swollen or some sort of minor injury.
    In the same class I broke my thumb and had two cracked ribs from a mawashei geri from our sempei. That was on Tuesday. On Thursday the next class I was back and dressed out early and ready to go. I was young (26) and eager. It might seem odd today but in those days we were used to it.
    I am now returning to training after a long time away from karate. I have about 40 lbs to loose before I will feel good about anything. I am returning as a beginner and hope to go as far as possible in rank. I hope that shodan still means something. It still does to me. I can't wait to earn it and then be able to really begin my training.
    In critical times one must be devoted utterly to the cause of justice.

    Gichin Funakoshi

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    Default Go for it...

    SIR WHAT YOU SAID IS INSPIRING, ESPECIALLY TO A FELLOW KARATE PRACTITIONER, i WISH YOU THE BEST OF LUCK AND HOPE THAT YOU FIND A GOOD TEACHER WHO CAN HELP YOU FULFILL THAT DREAM OF YOURS. tHE TRICK IS IN FINDING A TEACHER WHO HOLDS TO THE OLD WAYS AS WELL, IT'S NOT ALWAYS EASY TO DO, BUT THERE ARE STILL ENOUGH OUT THERE. THERE ARE STILL ALOT IN KARATE, MOST OF KARATE PHILOSOPHY COMES FROM GICHEN FUNAKOSHI, AND PEOPLE TEND TO EMULATE HIM IN HIS IDEAS OF KARATE AS BEING A WAY, NOT A SPORT, MYSELF INCLUDED. SHODAN DOES STILL MEAN SOMETHING, AND I HOPE YOU FIND IT AGAIN.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    This all leads to my question of concern. How do you judge a dojo? I am at a Dojo now that I have concerns about. I see people test and pass and I question if they should. What keeps me their is the fact that their Black Belts ALL impress me. So I figure they are doing something right to produce the end product.
    Well, I would day that the truth is that what a dan ranking means depends on the dojo. In Wado style, it would be hard to say that someone "didn't earn" a dan ranking from Takagi. These people are Bob Nash, Norma Foster and the like. Takagi-ryu people are insanely polished and Takagi doesn't just let people squeek by.

    On the other hand, some schools don't have that polish on them, but they may not be completely bad. Don't get me wrong; I do like my karate teacher, our school DOES have good students, but sometimes I question whether our black belts really earned their ranks, and I look at both technique and spirit.

    I think if you want a decent way of concretely judging schools, go with the easy and accurate way. Look at what they are doing, and if you like it they are good. If you don't like it they are bad.
    Eric Peter ("Pete") Ramberg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenophon456 View Post
    This all leads to my question of concern. How do you judge a dojo? I am at a Dojo now that I have concerns about. I see people test and pass and I question if they should. What keeps me their is the fact that their Black Belts ALL impress me. So I figure they are doing something right to produce the end product.
    As a part time taekwondo instructor, I find that the kiddie blackbelt is the curse of taekwondo. These kiddie belts hold a junior rank (a poom as opposed to a dan) which converts to a full dan rank upon them turning fifteen and their school filing paperwork or when they test for their next 'degree', if the child is fifteen or over, and say a second poom, if they pass, they're now third dan. Few of these kiddie-dans have the chops that one would expect of a yudansha. But they enable the school to boast in their lliterature that they promoted more blackbelts than the guy down the road, something that appeals to parents.

    The problem is that some of these kiddie dans become "masters" by the time they're in their early twenties and were never pushed to measure up to what a yudansha should be. These paper tigers go on to promote their own students, and since they themselves don't have the same skill as the guy that taught them, they pass on even less to their own students. When they promote these students, they promote students who are inferior to themselves. And it goes on until you have fourth dans that look like seventh kyus.

    From what I understand and have seen, this is not unique to taekwondo, though taekwondo is the biggest offender.

    To answer your question, you are like myself in that you know what a blackbelt should look like. Even in a different style, you can tell by how the person moves, their confidence, and their power. I always look at a school's blackbelts to form an opinion. If the master is elderly and infirm and unable to look like Dolph Lundgren, I don't care. I want to know what his or her yudansha look like. Yudansha are the report card of the school. Blackbelts who flail around and look awkward are an indication of unearned promotions.

    Also, too many "promotion products" in a school can be an indicator that the school is more about promotions and the resulting income than about serious training: Things such as 'blackbelt clubs, leadership clubs, and masters clubs', all of which cost money over and above the tuition, often come with special keikogis and/or patches, place the student (usually kids) in a "special" or "elite" clique, and rarely if ever offer anything of value in terms of training to the student.

    Such programs and clubs don't automatically make the school bad, but bad schools tend to gravitate towards such things. When I first got into "karate," which turned out to be taekwondo, the blackbelts were "special" and "elite" because they really could fight like champions and because their technique was beautiful. That is the image of a blackbelt that I hold in my head when I go to look at a school.

    How are their stances? If their stances are lousy, then detail work was never done. Do they lose ballance when they throw kicks? If so, then they haven't become proficient in the basics, and thus should not have a black belt.

    Daniel
    Last edited by Daniel Sullivan; 10th February 2009 at 15:55.
    Daniel Sullivan

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    I like Daniels post and his candor, especially about a system that he teaches. I have encountered quite a few of these Kiddie Masters. I have a very vivid memory of a school I did a Kyusho Jitsu seminar at in South Texas. I encountered teens and young adults with HIGH level Yudansha ranks. There was a young man who was getting ready to enter Military service (age 20) who sported seven stripes on his Black belt!!!!. I have a hard time understanding this mentality of promotion. The young man was very skillfull, but to be sporting six stripes on his Belt was quite surprising to me. Maybe my old school method of training and promotion have not meshed well with this current generation of training but thats OK with me. I will continue to promote based on merit, skill, attitude, time in grade,etc as was done to me. Give me small quantity with very good quality vs the paper mill promotions anyday. The Black Belt must count for something more than ego or money!
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jitsumania View Post
    The Black Belt must count for something more than ego or money!
    If you'll humor me:

    Why?
    Carl Hamlin
    -----------------------------------------
    'The etiquette that underlies all martial arts is based on the assumption that the person with whom you are dealing is standing before you wearing three feet of razor sharp steel.' - George Ledyard

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    If you'll humor me:

    Why?
    Because upon earning your black belt you should realize an inescapable truth: the color of the belt you're wearing symbolizes the result of dedication, pain, sacrifice, triumphs, forging the bonds of a common brotherhood, and pursuing the further depths of one's discipline; and most importantly, it should signal the acknowledgment of a very salient realization: the black belt is a road-sign at the beginning of the journey, not the end. (There really is no end)

    Jim Yang

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jitsumania View Post
    I like Daniels post and his candor, especially about a system that he teaches. I have encountered quite a few of these Kiddie Masters. I have a very vivid memory of a school I did a Kyusho Jitsu seminar at in South Texas. I encountered teens and young adults with HIGH level Yudansha ranks. There was a young man who was getting ready to enter Military service (age 20) who sported seven stripes on his Black belt!!!!. I have a hard time understanding this mentality of promotion. The young man was very skillfull, but to be sporting six stripes on his Belt was quite surprising to me. Maybe my old school method of training and promotion have not meshed well with this current generation of training but thats OK with me. I will continue to promote based on merit, skill, attitude, time in grade,etc as was done to me. Give me small quantity with very good quality vs the paper mill promotions anyday. The Black Belt must count for something more than ego or money!
    Thank you Rick.

    I don't see any reason to pretend that an art that I teach doesn't suffer from this problem. Though I suppose that I can afford to be objective since I don't promote blackbelts myself.

    I'm going to respond to your last sentence about the blackbelt counting for something more than ego or money.

    The black belt is an insignia of rank. It signifies the rank of yudansha (yudanja in Korean arts, but I digress). So, if something that symbolizes the rank is worn, then the issue is less the article of clothing itself but the rank that it proclaims has been bestowed upon the wearer.

    Once a rank is attached to a specific accessory, such as a belt or a sash, then the question arises as to what merit or qualifications the bearer of the rank possesses in order to have been given the rank. Unfortunately, rank of all sorts has been bought, sold, or otherwise traded in many areas, including martial arts, unfortunately.

    I see the rank of first dan (belt or no, as we don't wear a belt in kendo) as meaning that the holder is proficient in the style and is a proficient fighter in the style. Not unbeatable, but proficient. Also, a yudansha should be able to handle themselves against anyone. Not beat anyone, but maintain composure and 'handle' themselves. If their mommy needs to hold their hand from the car to the dojo then they should not be wearing a blackbelt.

    For styles that wear a black belt, the belt is there for the benefit of the students. I as a beginner know which students I should be asking for help if I cannot speak directly to the instructor.

    Unless the instructor is running a class of over fifty people, I don't see the black belt as being of any benefit to him or her. In most dojos, the class sizes are small enough that the instructor knows the relative progress of each of the students.

    So, I can go to a black belt factory dojo and essentially pay for the rank and associated belt or belts, have minimal ability, and unless I am tested in some fashion (such as attacked), my purchassed rank will do just fine.

    On the other hand, and for probably less money, I can go to a school that trains you well and pushes you hard, train hard outside of class, and become proficient in the style, learning the curriculum and performing at a level that anyone coming into the school will know that I have the skills, even if I'm training in sweats and not wearing a belt. I'd rather have the skills than be a paper tiger. I'd rather be a good blue belt than an undeserving blackbelt.

    My last comment is that I agree that a blackbelt should mean more than ego and paid testing fees because anyone with any sense can tell that the school is a crock when they see unskilled blackbelts performing on the mats. Such schools do very well attracting kids who want a belt and parents who want to check off the "my kid has a blackbelt" box and move on to the next activity. But serious practitioners, the kind that give the school a solid reputation, will avoid such schools.

    Daniel
    Daniel Sullivan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    If you'll humor me:

    Why?
    In my opinion if you have to ask this question your time working toward or having achieved a Black Belt has been a bit deficient in the philosophical arena of what it is to hold Yudansha rank. Jim and Daniel's posts before this response have done more than an adequate job as to explain the why, but since the question was directed to me I will answer you with this:

    "On the road to enlightenment chop wood and carry water and on the way back chop wood and carry water"

    Ponder this:
    The tatami will purge you of delusions or misconceptions you may have of yourself or others no matter how Black your belt may be. If you purchase it (belt that is) the tatami will offer you your reward in full.
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

  12. #27
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    Interesting thread.

    Jim Yang wrote:
    Because upon earning your black belt you should realize an inescapable truth: the color of the belt you're wearing symbolizes the result of dedication, pain, sacrifice, triumphs, forging the bonds of a common brotherhood, and pursuing the further depths of one's discipline; and most importantly, it should signal the acknowledgment of a very salient realization: the black belt is a road-sign at the beginning of the journey, not the end. (There really is no end)
    OK, I concur, on the basis of your use of the term 'should'. A further question: If you've put in the dedication, pain, and sacrifice, forged bonds of common brotherhood, achieved various triumphs and pursued the further depths of your discipline, after all that, why should the color of your belt matter at all? Seems to me the journey would be reward enough in itself, and after all that, receiving a black belt would be kind of an afterthought.

    Daniel Sullivan wrote:
    The black belt is an insignia of rank. It signifies the rank of yudansha (yudanja in Korean arts, but I digress). So, if something that symbolizes the rank is worn, then the issue is less the article of clothing itself but the rank that it proclaims has been bestowed upon the wearer.

    Once a rank is attached to a specific accessory, such as a belt or a sash, then the question arises as to what merit or qualifications the bearer of the rank possesses in order to have been given the rank. Unfortunately, rank of all sorts has been bought, sold, or otherwise traded in many areas, including martial arts, unfortunately.

    ...

    So, I can go to a black belt factory dojo and essentially pay for the rank and associated belt or belts, have minimal ability, and unless I am tested in some fashion (such as attacked), my purchassed rank will do just fine.
    Are we discussing rank as opposed to competence, or is the assumption made that rank correctly *reflects* competence?

    Daniel Sullivan wrote:
    I see the rank of first dan (belt or no, as we don't wear a belt in kendo) as meaning that the holder is proficient in the style and is a proficient fighter in the style. Not unbeatable, but proficient. Also, a yudansha should be able to handle themselves against anyone. Not beat anyone, but maintain composure and 'handle' themselves. If their mommy needs to hold their hand from the car to the dojo then they should not be wearing a blackbelt.
    Sure, but again, we're discussing 'should'. As to why rank is important at all, I see you've adress that in the next quote...

    Daniel Sullivan wrote:
    For styles that wear a black belt, the belt is there for the benefit of the students. I as a beginner know which students I should be asking for help if I cannot speak directly to the instructor.

    Unless the instructor is running a class of over fifty people, I don't see the black belt as being of any benefit to him or her. In most dojos, the class sizes are small enough that the instructor knows the relative progress of each of the students.
    Ah-HA! A practical answer. This I buy completely - the belt as an indicator to students concerned with whom they can ask for help. Absolutely.

    However. I imagine a beginning student can get help from any number of seniors, not just those wearing a black belt.

    Daniel Sullivan wrote:
    On the other hand, and for probably less money, I can go to a school that trains you well and pushes you hard, train hard outside of class, and become proficient in the style, learning the curriculum and performing at a level that anyone coming into the school will know that I have the skills, even if I'm training in sweats and not wearing a belt. I'd rather have the skills than be a paper tiger. I'd rather be a good blue belt than an undeserving blackbelt.
    Yes. This statement addresses the spirit in which my question was asked.

    Let's paint the scenario:

    ---

    It's a rainy night. Our hero is walking home from an evening drinking with friends. SUDDENLY, three scarred and bemuscled thugs jump out from behind a dumpster and approach menacingly!

    Our hero is calm, alert. With unshakable confidence, he reaches into his satchel, and produces...

    A BLACK belt!

    The thugs, shaken to their cores, drop their weapons and back away slowly, mumbling apologies.

    Disaster averted, our hero continues home.

    ---

    If/When it comes time to make use of one's training, this is not how it works - no matter what color belt you wear on the mat.

    Daniel Sullivan wrote:
    My last comment is that I agree that a blackbelt should mean more than ego and paid testing fees because anyone with any sense can tell that the school is a crock when they see unskilled blackbelts performing on the mats. Such schools do very well attracting kids who want a belt and parents who want to check off the "my kid has a blackbelt" box and move on to the next activity. But serious practitioners, the kind that give the school a solid reputation, will avoid such schools.
    As an aside, do you suppose folks would avoid those schools if everyone wore sweats and T-shirts?

    Rick Torres wrote:
    In my opinion if you have to ask this question your time working toward or having achieved a Black Belt has been a bit deficient in the philosophical arena of what it is to hold Yudansha rank.
    I understand where you're coming from. Fortunately, I've never spent a day of my life working towards rank or a new belt color. I've put in quite a lot of time, however, into learning how to get out of the way when someone's trying to hurt me, and somewhat less time into figuring out how to hurt them back.

    As an added bonus to those things, my time on the mat has also led to improved performance in my business, as well as a more conscientious attitude towards getting things done around the house, which has had a profoundly positive impact on my relationship with my wife. Additionally, I've also picked up a thing or two about saying 'I don't know' when I don't - a hard lesson, and one I don't recommend learning on the mat.

    I don't know why a black belt is important, and I'm trying to understand. It has seemed to me like this infatuation with the black belt is an assumption nearly everyone makes, and I'd like to get to the bottom of it. If you're willing to help me with that, that'd be nifty.

    Rick Torres
    Jim and Daniel's posts before this response have done more than an adequate job as to explain the why, but since the question was directed to me I will answer you with this:

    "On the road to enlightenment chop wood and carry water and on the way back chop wood and carry water"

    Ponder this:
    The tatami will purge you of delusions or misconceptions you may have of yourself or others no matter how Black your belt may be. If you purchase it (belt that is) the tatami will offer you your reward in full.
    *grin*

    I like it. Thank you.

    Looking forward to more discussion on this fascinating topic.
    Carl Hamlin
    -----------------------------------------
    'The etiquette that underlies all martial arts is based on the assumption that the person with whom you are dealing is standing before you wearing three feet of razor sharp steel.' - George Ledyard

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    Hello Carl,

    Why is rank important?

    Aside from the differentiation between master and student, it is only important as a credential.

    Why is the credential important?

    A. If it is required by a local, state or national law in order to teach, it is important. I don't know of any place where this is the case, but I've heard of weirder laws.

    B. If one is running a school that is dependent upon some form of payment from the students or donations from outside, those financial contributors are often more comfortable with paying an individual who is credentialed.

    C. To be accepted for a teaching position at a school. In this regard it is no different than a college degree.

    D. It is required for a specific level of competition (usually national and international) by some sanctioning bodies in some arts, such as USAT for example (TKD).

    E. Lastly, because rank in MA and the accompanying belt is so ingrained in the minds of both the public and the MA community, anyone without a level of rank risks being called a fake (deservingly or not) if they don't have it.

    Those are the only practical reasons that I can think of for having rank. Not bad reasons, but as you can see, none of them have anything to do with skill level or competency.

    Daniel
    Daniel Sullivan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    As an aside, do you suppose folks would avoid those schools if everyone wore sweats and T-shirts?
    Yes. The turnoff is lousy training, not fancy keikogis and belts.

    Sadly, a good school with outstanding training may be passed over if they are wearing sweats and T-shirts. The ignorant will assume that the folks with fancy gis and belts know more and some of the serious will decry the school as not traditional.

    Daniel
    Daniel Sullivan

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    Thank you, Daniel. You've given me a lot to chew on.
    Carl Hamlin
    -----------------------------------------
    'The etiquette that underlies all martial arts is based on the assumption that the person with whom you are dealing is standing before you wearing three feet of razor sharp steel.' - George Ledyard

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