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Thread: Does the Black belt mean anything anymore?

  1. #31
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    You're welcome, Carl.

    Personally, I feel that rank can be a very useful tool within an organization. It gives everyone looking at the structure an idea of who has been training for how long and hopefully a rough idea of skill level.

    One problem is that above a certain point, the level of skill tends to be in different areas. I am not a tournament champion, though I hold my own in competition and even have some trophies. On the other hand, I am analytical and can break down the techniques and strategies and communicate them to others in a way that they can use and benefit from.

    On the other hand, a guy or gal who doesn't have the temperment for teaching may just plug and chug in personal training and be an awesome competitor with an unbelievable level of execution.

    Yet both of us may be the same rank.

    Another is that rank tends to get used as almost a multi level marketing tool. For example:

    "I'm a fifth dan and my upline is a seventh dan in the business.. er.. art. I have seven fourth dans under me and each of them has produced ten or more blackbelts from first through third. One guy even has twenty first dans, ten second, and eight third dans! He's really going places! Now if you get in to my school, you'll be a part of a growing network of yudansha."

    That sounds great to the uninitiated. Looks good in an add for your school in Blackbelt Magazine too. But what does it say about you?

    The fifth dan in this scenario isn't talking about blackbelts that he is personally bringing up. Maybe he's eighty seven and retired. But maybe he just struts around his 10,000 square foot dojo in full samurai regalia and speaks in riddles to students and doesn't do any training at all.

    So often, high ranking masters pawn off the working with white belts and low belts onto senior students and sometimes onto green belts and blue belts. This is a big problem because generally, green belts and blue belts haven't internalized the techniques to where they can full explain the techique and fully evaluate how the beginner is doing. I think that the higher one's rank (assuming that their ability, depth of knowledge, and teachign ability correspond), the more time that one should spend with white belts and low belts. Building a solid foundation is very important, and contributes to having good, solid yudansha with solid basics.

    Also, high ranking practitioners who continue to work with the beginning students stay grounded in the basics and hopefully don't develope the over inflated egos that some do.

    Daniel
    Daniel Sullivan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    Interesting thread.



    OK, I concur, on the basis of your use of the term 'should'. A further question: If you've put in the dedication, pain, and sacrifice, forged bonds of common brotherhood, achieved various triumphs and pursued the further depths of your discipline, after all that, why should the color of your belt matter at all? Seems to me the journey would be reward enough in itself, and after all that, receiving a black belt would be kind of an afterthought.



    Are we discussing rank as opposed to competence, or is the assumption made that rank correctly *reflects* competence?
    The ideal is that rank does reflect competancy. Why you ask....because that is what it was meant to do. Society has always had symbols, labels etc to differentiate competancy of individuals. We must remember also that the belt system is a relatively new concept whose inception was developed by an educator and Judo founder (Jigoro Kano). The fact that we have bastardized the system does not reflect a flaw of the system but the practitioners involved in the system.As usual in society corruption occurs due to obtaining monatery or ego gain or both!



    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    Sure, but again, we're discussing 'should'. As to why rank is important at all, I see you've adress that in the next quote...



    Ah-HA! A practical answer. This I buy completely - the belt as an indicator to students concerned with whom they can ask for help. Absolutely.

    However. I imagine a beginning student can get help from any number of seniors, not just those wearing a black belt.
    This goes to the point. How are we going to distingush the senior student from the junior student if there is not a que for distinguishing who is who. A beginning student may do a technique to 65% correctness and it may appear correct to another beginning student but in fact the technique is flawed. The higher the belt level (in most cases) will minimize the margin of error due to time in grade and frequency of practice with the technique. Higher belt levels have usually spent more time under the corrective eye of their Instructor


    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    Yes. This statement addresses the spirit in which my question was asked.

    Let's paint the scenario:

    ---

    It's a rainy night. Our hero is walking home from an evening drinking with friends. SUDDENLY, three scarred and bemuscled thugs jump out from behind a dumpster and approach menacingly!

    Our hero is calm, alert. With unshakable confidence, he reaches into his satchel, and produces...

    A BLACK belt!

    The thugs, shaken to their cores, drop their weapons and back away slowly, mumbling apologies.

    Disaster averted, our hero continues home.
    Ummm lets try a better and more realistic ending:
    reaches into his waistband and produces...... a Glock 26 with 12 9mm jacketed hollow point hydroshock rounds in the clip.

    The thugs, shaken to their cores, drop their weapons and back away slowly, mumbling apologies.

    Disaster averted, our hero reholsters weapon and continues home while dialing 911 on his cell phone.
    Who says Black Belts don't carry guns! I do, and do it legally!

    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post

    If/When it comes time to make use of one's training, this is not how it works - no matter what color belt you wear on the mat.
    The higher the belt level the greater proficiency you have with technique. This is so because of kinesthetic memory (muscle memory) due to higher frequency of technique repetition during practice. A white belt will not have the same proficiency with a mawashi geri or a kote gaeshi , (insert other techniqe)that a brown belt will have. In a conflict situation adrenaline will be flowing and if your technique is not "in you" you will not be able to use it.



    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    I understand where you're coming from. Fortunately, I've never spent a day of my life working towards rank or a new belt color. I've put in quite a lot of time, however, into learning how to get out of the way when someone's trying to hurt me, and somewhat less time into figuring out how to hurt them back.

    As an added bonus to those things, my time on the mat has also led to improved performance in my business, as well as a more conscientious attitude towards getting things done around the house, which has had a profoundly positive impact on my relationship with my wife. Additionally, I've also picked up a thing or two about saying 'I don't know' when I don't - a hard lesson, and one I don't recommend learning on the mat.

    I don't know why a black belt is important, and I'm trying to understand. It has seemed to me like this infatuation with the black belt is an assumption nearly everyone makes, and I'd like to get to the bottom of it. If you're willing to help me with that, that'd be nifty.



    *grin*

    I like it. Thank you.

    Looking forward to more discussion on this fascinating topic.
    As a practiotioner of Aikido (among other arts) I too have spent alot of time learning to move out of harms way (teach students to do same). The problem with this one paradigm or approach is that some attackers will keep coming untill they subdue you or worse. That is why I have spent time learning (and teaching) how to counter and subdue or worse if the situation calls for it. Aikido and Jujitsu are good for teaching this, as well as other arts. Balance is essential if we are to survive in dangerous encounters (ie never take a knife to a gunfight unless you are extremely skilled with your knife).

    Lessons on the mat will always transfer into our daily living if we are willing to recieve the lesson(s) and apply them.

    The Black Belt will have the significance to the practitioner that he or she attaches to it. Truly in the end it only holds your Gi closed.
    You can wear a Black Belt or you can be a Black Belt.
    Student attrition in training is high prior to ever recieving Black Belt rank.
    The Belt says "I stayed while others quit"
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

  3. #33
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    Both Daniel and Rick have posted excellent and thorough responses to the questions raised, but since I've got a case of insomnia, I'll chime in with my perspective here and there.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    As an aside, do you suppose folks would avoid those schools if everyone wore sweats and T-shirts?
    First off, if T-shirts and sweats were the norm for all Asian martial arts, I would have saved mucho $$$$ spent on uniforms throughout the years.
    Secondly, in the Russian Martial Art of Systema for example, t-shirts and loose or comfortable pants are the norm, there are no belts, and instructors wear t-shirts identifying them as such if they so choose. And I know of very talented people in classical koryu and gendai arts who cross-train with the Systema folks on a regular (and some full-time) basis because they find it truly worthwhile. So, no, I don't think people would avoid such schools if only for the fact that most would react upon encountering such a scenario with a decreased sense of being an outsider not knowing the formal dress code and accompanying etiquette.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    Seems to me the journey would be reward enough in itself, and after all that, receiving a black belt would be kind of an afterthought.
    The Zen Answer: Exactly So why does the seeker not realize what he has sought?

    The more or less analytical one: The original intent of the founder of Judo, Jigoro Kano, was to introduce a systematized, non-lethal martial art into the Japanese education system to cultivate physical strength, and perhaps more importantly, development and growth of good character. To me, Kano's pursuit of the martial arts was to preserve and modernize Budo so that it allowed for both techniques and practitioners to evolve beyond lethal means as the primary or only options in conflict while bestowing practitioners with the correlating lessons of self-discipline and good character. The introduction of the modern dan ranking system with Judo signaled stages of physical AND mental progress on the part of the student (FTR, mental progress for me equates with maturity as much as sound judgment and tactics).

    And here is the inherent problem I've touched upon in an earlier post: do the students of today that achieve shodan honestly possess both the physical proficiency and maturity of character that Kano had envisioned for the ranking and representation of the art itself as a benefit to humanity as a whole?

    If the black belt, or any other belt for that matter, truly does not matter, since there cannot be a universally agreed upon standard of the skills and qualifications for a black belt even within a single art, then we are faced with the proposition of rank/skill relativism that would negate any value of granting or earning rank. The obvious solution would be one-on-one contests to settle issues of authority or skill, but somehow I think that it would defeat the original purpose of 'self-defense' and 'self-improvement'. The solution, well actually, to paraphrase one possible solution from a college philosophy professor of mine:
    "The absence of absolutes in the realm of whatever philosophical discipline you're trying to study or support does not mean that all arguments are of equal value. In any field, there exist better and worse arguments and propositions that base themselves upon facts and substantive discourses aimed towards partially resolving the basis of the truth or the good."
    Why does rank matter? For all the reasons previously stated. Why does rank not matter? For all the reasons stated.

    Food for Thought from The Karate Kid:
    Daniel: Hey - you ever get into fights when you were a kid?
    Miyagi: Huh - plenty.
    Daniel: Yeah, but it wasn't like the problem I have, right?
    Miyagi: Why? Fighting fighting. Same same.
    Daniel: Yeah, but you knew karate.
    Miyagi: Someone always know more.
    Daniel: You mean there were times when you were scared to fight?
    Miyagi: Always scare. Miyagi hate fighting.
    Daniel: Yeah, but you like karate.
    Miyagi: So?
    Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight.
    Miyagi: That what you think?
    Daniel: [pondering] No.
    Miyagi: Then why train?
    Daniel: [thinks] So I won't have to fight.
    Miyagi: [laughs] Miyagi have hope for you.


    Good night, or early morning depending on how you look at it.

    Jim Yang

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic Tiger View Post
    I see the rank of first dan (belt or no, as we don't wear a belt in kendo) as meaning that the holder is proficient in the style and is a proficient fighter in the style. Not unbeatable, but proficient.
    I don't see why people get so hung up on that colour. Rank only has meaning within a particular school, or if you're lucky, within that school's umbrella organization. I find it interesting that you would characterize shodan as being proficient coming from kendo, where shodan for most adult beginners represents 2 years of hobby practice. Where I come from, a shodan in kendo is roughly equivalent to an orange belt in judo, skill-wise. And as long as everyone understands that, that is just fine. The kendo community pays almost no attention to kyu ranks and in fact regards shodan through sandan as kid's ranks.

    So you can't compare shodan in this art to shodan in that one meaningfully. I find people who get all huffy about the sanctity of the "black belt" are entirely too hung up on it themselves. We get that happening here in judo, where the old guard at one time kept raising the bar for shodan because in their minds, it was some mystical thing. Now it takes nearly 10 years to get a judo shodan where I live. It's just shodan, ferchrissake. The "sho" means beginning or basic, not "qualified to instruct".
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Wow ..... good topic!

    Does a Black belt mean anything?

    When I first started martial arts ......many years ago .... I started with Tae Kwon Do. I was always taught that the rank of black belt was just the beginning. When I came to Japan, and started learning Go Jyu Ryu, I went to a very traditional Dojo. I learned that the belt, what ever level .... was just the beginning but the black belt....at least Shodan, was really the beginning of learning. Yes, there were many cases where I saw black belts that were young. In Japan, there are what you call junior black belts. I beleive at 16 they must qualify for a senior(adult) black belt again.

    Does a black belt mean anything .......to those who hold one ....yes! To those who lower their standards in order to award one .....NO! Yes ... there are many Macdojos out there and there are a lot of so called instructors that give black belts in order to stay in business.

    When martial arts are not treated as a sport or business and the standards are not lowered ...... then the black belt may once again actually have more meaning than it seems to have now.

    I know that I may have opened up a can of worms ...... oh well.
    Mark Posselius

    Yep, and the practice goes on!!!

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    Well said, Neil.

    I think that the big problem is not the the blackbelt is somehow mystical or sacred, but that what it represents (basic proficiency in a style as taught by the instructor who bestowed the belt) has been not inflated, but deflated so that people who have essentially very little, if any proficiency are given the belt in exchange for paying the testing fee.

    Even this is unimportant except that a good number of these people, often children, actually believe that they can defend themselves because they have a black belt, when in fact, they cannot.

    Personally, I'm not the belt police. If the parents shelling out 500 bucks for the belt cannot, after watching their child flail about for an hour and a half haven't figured out that the little tyke isn't proficient, then they're intentionally ignorant and unfortunately, cooperating in their own conning.

    A blackbelt should merely represent knowledge and proficicency in Kyu rank material. Nothing more. A black belt is sometimes characterized as one who has learned how to learn. In this, a blackbelt has the knowledge of the mechanics of the system in which they study to be able to advance and improve their technique, both with the guidance of an instructor and in the course of their own practice. They can connect the dots, if you will.

    Beyond that, the black belt contrasts well with a white keikogi.

    Daniel
    Daniel Sullivan

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    Daniel, I'm just having trouble resolving what you're saying with the reality of what a kendo shodan is in your neck of the woods. I don't really think they are proficient in the basics particularily, and I don't think they have sufficient knowledge to connect any dots. They typically have a total practice time of maybe 400 hours. Think about that - if they approached it like a job, that would mean they've had 10 weeks of fulltime practice.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic Tiger View Post
    A blackbelt should merely represent knowledge and proficicency in Kyu rank material. Nothing more. A black belt is sometimes characterized as one who has learned how to learn. In this, a blackbelt has the knowledge of the mechanics of the system in which they study to be able to advance and improve their technique, both with the guidance of an instructor and in the course of their own practice. They can connect the dots, if you will.

    Beyond that, the black belt contrasts well with a white keikogi.
    Here's a question for those of us who got our introduction to the martial arts via Tae Kwon Do (and I suspect the experience includes many), if the current evaluation of the black belt within any singular organization pertains to competent technical skill, have the philosophical tenets of the art been wholly discarded and nothing more than lofty ideals impractical and irrelevant towards the execution of physical techniques?

    I still remember when starting out in Tae Kwon Do that my instructor emphasized the guiding tenets of the art: Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self-Control, and Indomitable Spirit. In fact, I still remember writing essays on those topics as a 14 year old kid while part of the school (he always said that the weekly essays were a good way to keep tabs of what we were up to outside of class and gave him good perspective on how we sorted out the 'do' beyond kicking and punching).

    And since this thread is in the Karate Forum, what of Gichin Funakoshi's "Twenty Precepts of Karate" for Shotokan? What would his interpretation be of the modern Shotokan legacy where the karate-ka is suppose to exemplify the guiding ideals of humility, compassion, patience and stoic conduct for his or her art?

    Jim Yang

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    Tell me about it, Neil.

    There are people who tested for first dan in the same amount of time that I did, but who showed up once a week and would often miss class for a week or two here and there, while I showed up three and four times a week in addition to practice outside of class.

    I don't get particularly riled up about the blackbelt/first dan personally. I just train. Rank is a byproduct of training and time in grade, but not my goal.

    Out of curiosity, when you say, 'your neck of the woods,' DC area?

    Daniel
    Daniel Sullivan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic Tiger View Post
    Out of curiosity, when you say, 'your neck of the woods,' DC area?
    Yes, that's what I assumed from your Maryland location. I've trained with Shidogakuin in Rockville and Herndon, the GW crew and the Capital Budokai guys and years ago at GMU. So I know a lot of the people and what the levels are, and they're about the same for recreational players starting as adults in our area and other places I've trained. It's fairly consistent.
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    Quote Originally Posted by Markaso View Post
    Wow ..... good topic!

    Does a Black belt mean anything?

    When I first started martial arts ......many years ago .... I started with Tae Kwon Do. I was always taught that the rank of black belt was just the beginning. When I came to Japan, and started learning Go Jyu Ryu, I went to a very traditional Dojo. I learned that the belt, what ever level .... was just the beginning but the black belt....at least Shodan, was really the beginning of learning. Yes, there were many cases where I saw black belts that were young. In Japan, there are what you call junior black belts. I beleive at 16 they must qualify for a senior(adult) black belt again.

    Does a black belt mean anything .......to those who hold one ....yes! To those who lower their standards in order to award one .....NO! Yes ... there are many Macdojos out there and there are a lot of so called instructors that give black belts in order to stay in business.

    When martial arts are not treated as a sport or business and the standards are not lowered ...... then the black belt may once again actually have more meaning than it seems to have now.

    I know that I may have opened up a can of worms ...... oh well.
    Being an Instructor gives me the right to choose who I want to train or not. I inform all my students that there are no Black Belt wonders or phenoms produced in this Dojo, so forget the 2 year Black Belt program. I usually weed the ego or belt seekers out by informing them that Black Belt rank usually occurs after working through a 7 belt system that leads to Shodan in 4 1/2 - 5 years requiring practice a minimum of 2x per week (usually practice sessions are 2 1/2 -3 hours). Kids class is about 1 hour /3x per week.
    Anything worth having is worth working and waiting for.
    It is so unfortunate that the buisness treatment of the MA has diluted what should be taught and learned by teacher and student alike. One of my favorite phrases is "Maybe this Dojo is not for.....insert: you, your child,etc..
    The statement is not meant to be calous but to be truthfull because conflicting philosophies or goals usually leads to conflict, hurt feelings, unrealistic expectations, etc.When expectations are clear everybody is usually on the same page and operating in unity.
    I am so glad I have a day job where I make my bread and butter and teach by night at my own Dojo. Don't get me wrong, Income is good, but thats not what it is all about. Alot of some great masters I have met have day jobs.
    Rick Torres, Dojo Cho
    Integrity Defensive Arts
    Victoria, Texas
    www.ksrjujitsu.com
    [/B]

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    Mr. Torres


    Yeah, being an instructor in your own dojo does have it's advantages. I have been in Japan now for around 20 years studyng the same style. The first Dojo that I started training in was very traditional and for an adult, it took an average of 3 years to just be able to test for your black belt. That was at a rate of two to three times a week of practice for about 2-2 1/2 hrs per session.

    I myself went through a Dojo test as well as an association test up to my Yon Dan (4th degree black belt). For the first to fourth association test, we had a written test .......not fun as it was all in Japanese and my Japanese is not THAT good!

    Yes, I'm now lucky enough to practice / teach 4 times a week at 3 hrs a session. I am the head instructor at a university here and an assistant instructor at my Sensei's Dojo.

    Just this past year I was awarded my Go Dan (5th). I need to wait another 5-6 years before I can ven test again. I don't mind the wait at all.......just getting older though. I love to practice as well as love being taught. I've been lucky to have two very good Sensei.
    Mark Posselius

    Yep, and the practice goes on!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssanutokh View Post
    If you'll humor me:

    Why?
    Well, there is no absolute mandate to have a skill ranking system. All of the Koryu styles got by for hundreds of years without any real ranks (but they do have a variety of levels of teaching licenses). In this situation, you are either good or you aren't.

    However, IF you are going to have a ranking system it is to compare your students to each other to know at a simple glance who is more skillful than the others.
    Eric Peter ("Pete") Ramberg

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    Quote Originally Posted by skylinerR32 View Post
    Here's a question for those of us who got our introduction to the martial arts via Tae Kwon Do (and I suspect the experience includes many), if the current evaluation of the black belt within any singular organization pertains to competent technical skill, have the philosophical tenets of the art been wholly discarded and nothing more than lofty ideals impractical and irrelevant towards the execution of physical techniques?
    From what I have seen in my area, skill level is on the average not all that tremendous. You have a lot of people who are martial hobbyists, and the bulk of the schools, regardless of art, cater to this level of practitioner. Most all of the school in my area have some type of child program and of course, Taekwondo schools pretty much dominate the landscape.

    I haven't seen much, if any emphasis on the tenets discussed in general classes. At the school where I teach (kendo and taekwondo), tenets and philosophy are modeled more than specifically addressed. I address philosophy a bit more in the kendo class than in the taekwondo class; my work is very much cut out for me in the taekwondo class in other areas and the kendo students tend to be more open to philosophy.

    Near as I can tell, most of the martial arts schools in my area are commercial schools with an emphasis on belt acquisition and lots of patches and clubs for the kids.

    Yes, there are exceptions. But not many.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylinerR32 View Post
    I still remember when starting out in Tae Kwon Do that my instructor emphasized the guiding tenets of the art: Courtesy, Integrity, Perseverance, Self-Control, and Indomitable Spirit. In fact, I still remember writing essays on those topics as a 14 year old kid while part of the school (he always said that the weekly essays were a good way to keep tabs of what we were up to outside of class and gave him good perspective on how we sorted out the 'do' beyond kicking and punching).
    The only time I have been required to write an essay at any school that I have been involved with was for shodan promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylinerR32 View Post
    And since this thread is in the Karate Forum, what of Gichin Funakoshi's "Twenty Precepts of Karate" for Shotokan? What would his interpretation be of the modern Shotokan legacy where the karate-ka is suppose to exemplify the guiding ideals of humility, compassion, patience and stoic conduct for his or her art?[
    A good question, though I will defer to others, as I am not a current Shotokan practitioner (my last experience with Shotokan was about thirty years ago).

    Daniel
    Daniel Sullivan

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    Talking

    Hello! This is my first time on the message board. Personally I think the Black Belt is losing ground. My Sensei told me when he was a kid if someone said that he/she was a Black Belt, everyone would say WOW!!!!!!! He said now when someone says they are a Black Belt, everyone says what can you do? There are many reasons why the Black Belt is losing ground. Personally it makes me sad, because I worked 5 1/2 years to reach Shodan, and there's people who pay $500+ and get their's in 1-2 years. There's people who hole a low Dan rank (1st or 2nd) in two or three systems, and they go to an organzation and then BOOM he/she is a 5th Dan with only 15 years of training. It's sad because it's giving the REAL Black belts bad names. Even the Belt it's self is getting sad. Instead of there being Black, Red-White (or Red-Black), then Red (or Gold). Now it seems like that every level of Black Belt has a different "belt". I think something needs to be done to stop this.

    Thanks,
    A. Wilson

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