Aikijujutsu vs Aikido

[Green_Dreads]

Mr Tisdale,

Perhaps these sensei would be more honest if they called their system 'jujutsu'? Jujutsu, as the moderator of the Jujutsu forum has told me, is a fairly generic term, whereas aikijujutsu would appear to be a more specific term? Just working with the linguistics here, since, to be frank, I don't know what I'm talking about. That is, aikijujutsu. Its just that I would assume 'aikijujutsu' met some certain criteria, therefore allowing modern schools of aikijujutsu to develop genuinely?

Its a very rare art as it is. I'm lucky to be as close to an aikijujutsu dojo as I am, and in my case its two towns drive away.

[Arman]

Mr. Lewin,

Let's forget for the moment the issue of "modern" aikijujutsu systems. Aiki practitioners are like economists: they can't even agree on the common fundamental principles of their system. What one Daito ryu group considers aiki, another considers jujutsu. What one might consider aiki, another considers !!!!!!!!. Some see aiki as a general term signifying a specific category of unbalancing techniques. Others see aiki as a highly specific term signifying a unique and specialized application of force/energy/physics. Some consider it a bit of both.

As for historical lineage, this is just as contentious. Nobody really knows the historical lineage of aikijujutsu. Some believe its old as dirt, others that its fairly concurrent with the origination of judo.

Now, if you reflect on these things, you will see your question as somewhat ludicrous. The one thing aiki systems have going for them is that they have a verifiable lineage at least going back to the late 19th century, and they have a coherent, viable system that can be distinguished from other systems. It is perhaps this last point that might help you out. One can see, and feel, aikijujutsu, as opposed to pure jujutsu. As one Supreme Court justice said about pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

Thus, the high suspicion and raised eyebrows by those who hear about "modern" aikijujutsu systems. In other words, somebody just mixed a bunch of martial arts together and made up his own style and decided to call it aikijujutsu.

As for your comments regarding Mr. Amdur, perhaps you are not aware that he has been involved with aiki arts (among others) for a long, long time?

Regards,
Arman Partamian

[Neil Yamamoto]

Well, I fit right into the middle of this question.

I’m tied to Bernie Lau’s Icho Ryu as most people know. Bernie named his stuff Icho Ryu Aikijujutsu.
Why? Because given the time period, and his efforts to try and develop something that would not just be branded as more aikido, using aikijujutsu made sense. The techniques were more akin to jujutsu, but there were elements of aiki as Bernie understood it in the curriculum. Bernie’s idea of aiki never fit in with most aikido so with the definitions of the distinctions between ‘Jutsu’ and ‘Do’ that Bernie used, it just fell into place to use aikijujutsu.

There is no tie to DRAJJ or other Japanese schools of AJJ except for Bernie communicating with Takeda Tokimune, a few visitors from Japan who were DRAJJ students, but nothing more than that. Now one of Bernie’s less bright students went about telling every one that there were ties to DRAJJ to try and make himself look good, but it just ain’t true. So, it’s a modern art derived from a Japanese art, created by a French guy, who was adopted by a Chinese family, and who was raised in Hawaii. Real good basis for traditional.

Now how does that impact the little Icho group? Good question. I have long considered what I do as something that doesn’t fit any precise labeling attempt. I’m sure not an aikidoka, (despite Chris Moses deciding to call what we practice at the Bad budo club- “Yamamoto-ha Fluffy Aiki Bunny Ryu) but I’m also influenced by AJJ from Yanagi Ryu courtesy of Don Angier helping me to clarify what I do. I don’t claim to teach Yanagi Ryu, so no smart !!! comments and no contacting me about learning Yanagi Ryu unless you want to be insulted for being stupid.

What Bernie did, and what I’m trying to do, and to my surprise have been somewhat successful at doing, is become what I’ve been called by some of my traditional martial arts peers “A martial artist and teacher who respects tradition while avoiding “blinders” in regards to it.”

Bernie has decided that he likes the idea of calling it Icho Ryu aikibudo more than any thing now. Fine with me, I don’t really care what to call it despite my supposed to be running it. Though not a Japanese traditional art, Bernie kept some of the trappings of Japanese culture because, like another e-budoka says “I like the Japanese thingy.” Cool! Isn’t that why most of us are here?

No, I’m not really continuing a tradition, or even really trying to develop one. I've realized that will happen no matter what I want. All I'm trying to do is honor Bernie by making sure at least a few students learn well and learn to teach well.

I’m not looking to spread the word of Icho with more students personally, except I could use 2 or 3 more to help pay the rent. I’ll even admit to doing what I can to avoid contact by having little tolerance for most people unless referred to me by someone I know well and respect. That has earned me what one well-known aikidoka up here calls “a bad attitude”.

So, whether people want to call what I do JJ or AJJ, or even aikido doesn’t really matter. What I intend to do is say I do jujutsu to people who ask cause it’s easier. My girlfriend tells people I do aikido cause it’s easier for her than to try and explain. I’ll continue to teach and learn with the losers, er I mean, people I like enough to want to train with as friends and students, and not worry about how I’m labeled. Yes, I’ve got a bad attitude as the obi I have with “Ki is crap” and “666” embroidered on it clearly shows.

So, if you are like me, and you fall into this ‘modern,gendai,’ or ‘traditional,koryu’ origins and authenticity discussion, just don’t lie about the history of what you do, and be happy you have something you like doing, and work to be better at it.

Sorry no deep thoughts, but just my little point of view.

[ghp]

Geez, Neil!

I almost love you, man!



--Guy
(errrr .... but not in that manly, sweaty, prison-love way)

[Ellis Amdur]

The only old school jujutsu school I ever ran across that really centered around atemijutsu (aside from it's weaponry - sword, naginata and kamayari) was Kasumi Shin-ryu. Its last instructor, a gnarly old fish monger told me it was a "keidomyaku bujutsu", meaning that it attacked the arteries. He told me that his instructor used to thrust his fingertips repetitively into hanging sides of beef (pre-Rocky obviously).

He did some things to me with his fingers at points on my neck and under my collar bone - that hurt a lot. A real lot.

Never saw or experienced anything else like it in Japanese circles. Close range stabs and grabs with fingers like clawed dowels. Did I mention how much it hurt? Like if your rolfer suddenly slipped the rails and decided to take you apart rather than smooth out the rough spots. That ANNGRY pain that makes you want to rip someone's face off except you have to move into the pain, which is manifesting real damage, not just painful feelings, to accomplish any counterattacks.

He refused to teach anyone. I tried, but he was obsessed with his low social standing and I approached him with too much respect. I would have done better to simply have said, "I'm gonna drop by your house sometime. Show me some more of that stuff." But giving him respect was in direct conflict with his low-class job and "honor" dictated he refuse any such marks of respect to maintain his own masochistic self-respect. (Every time you think you figured Japan out, you get another slider right over the inside corner). The ryu is now extinct.

Ellis Amdur
www.ellisamdur.com

[Aikijutsu Arts]

As a student of Aikijutsu, long ago I weighed the odds of taking Aikijutsu and Akido. What I gathered from all my research was that Aikido was derived from Aikijutsu. After WWII, our military (US) made the Japanese discontinue the teaching of Aikijutsu.

Morihei Ueshiba (A.K.A.-O' Sensei) then took 12 of the basic throws from Aikijutsu and elaborated to form Aikido. He spoke saying that, "(Paraphrase) The offensive arts in Aikijutsu were not fit for this modern day world." However, most (if not all) of the arts in Aikido are also in Aikijutsu. Which brings me to my question for all of you...

...why take Aikido when Aikijutsu is available to learn? It would appear to me that taking Aikido over Aikijutsu is a rip off. You are not learning all that is offered.

(However, it is clearly understandable to take Aikido over Aikijutsu if wish to be purely pacifist)

Thanks for your time,
-Nick

[Howard Thiery]

This one has been done many times before but here is a short summary of at least one side frequently presented.

You have oversimplified the roots of Aikido and certainly where it went after that. Your logic would suggest that no art is worth pursuing because the parent/root/older art is always preferable. By that logic Koryu Jujuts u may very well be superior to the more "modern"Aikijujutsu. Aikido is certainly at this point a cousin of Aikijujutsu but they are also very different. People will pursue the one they feel offers them something because each has something different to offer.This extends beyond the pacifist slap you threw in at the end which really holds no water since if effectiveness in combat is all you are interested in then get thee to a pistol range.
The other aspect that always puzzles me about this line of reasonong when it crops up is the assumption that real Aikijujutsu is ubiquitious. It is actualy quite uncommmon and while you may have found a place to study it most will not have the opportunity.

H

[don]

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1

Welcome to the board, Mr. Lakin.

Have you done a search of the board for previous threads along the lines of your question? As Mr. Thiery pointed out, there have been many threads on this topic. If you're truly interested in the attitudes of players in both camps, use the search function:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/search.php?

Some years ago (right after a bunch of AJJ players took their SHODANs), there was huge controversy over at

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/index.php

This might be a more productive place to look for your topic. Their search function is at

http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/search.php

Happy surfing.

[Dan Harden]

I will add to that .....a question.

Do you think that Takeda Sokaku is worth listening too?

Think he may know a thing or two about Aikijujutsu?

If you do........ It might be worth noting that he said Daitoryu is de-ffensive in nature not off-ensive.

And..........If you are under the mistaken assumption that the people in DR are any more statistically potent or able than those in Aikido you haven't been around much. As a true fan of Daito ryu and a supporter of it on the net..I none-the-less have a favorite saying.

Most of these Aiki-wars can be resolved in the hands of a good Judoka.

I think you will find that thee..common root that is the essence of power in Daito ryu and Aikido is; internal skills, not technique. And...I suggest you will discover that it is extremely rare in both arts. And I would never...go braggin on Daito ryu technique in the presence of some of the skilled men you will find here anyway. But thats just me. In the mean time I suggest instead of braggin on what some teachers or masters did or can do.....turn inward and go grab some jujutsuka, Judoka, Muay tai, Systema and MMA guys. When you get to the point that they can't handle you too easily write back. In the mean time take a seat on the budo bus and get over your art. See it in balance.

I'll give ya aheads up...if you're are on the ten years dance of learning the pretzle logic before you get to the real core of what will stop most men in their tracks...bully for you.But I'll tell you one thing. There are other serious men in Budo..and yes.....even in Aikido.

Dan

[Aikijutsu Arts]

To Don,
My many thanks.

To Howard and Dan,
Please understand that I am not slamming Aikido in any way. I took it for quite some time before Aikijutsu was offered here. I understand that there are certain differences in both. Furthermore, there are more SIMULARITIES than differences.

And please note that I was not making a "slap" to anyone with my pacifist comment. I have a friend who for that very reason takes Aikido over Aikijutsu. So please note that I am not slamming Aikido in any way. Moreover, I am only asking for oppinions.

The philosopher Plato once said, "The only thing I know is that I know nothing." Thus is my search for everyones OPPINION.

Thank you,
-Nick

[don]

Most of these Aiki-wars can be resolved in the hands of a good Judoka.

Coke in the nostrils.

Again.

Geez, i gotta stop reading these boards.

Thanks for this, Dan.

[Ron Tisdale]

Huh? Oh....THAT kind of coke...

Best,
Ron (before coffee on monday morning...)

[cxt]

Swat

As you say "your not learning all that is offered."

For just another viewpoint---I have had a simliar arguement with a buddy of mine.
Different art but appox the same situation.

I asked him more of less the same question--and he aked me the following.

1-Whats make you think your learning all there is with your current art?

The "whole" teaching is passed down to only a very, very few people. So "most" students never get it all.

So its "really" a question of percentage--and how do you establish exactly what that percentage is going to be??

2-How much do you need to know to do what you need it to do?

By this he meant if say self-defense was your goal--then how much/many techniqes do you actually NEED?
Many systems of fighting do not depend on 100's and 100's of techniques in order to be effective.
Western boxing/Thai boxing only has a "handfull" compared to other systems and nobody seems to feel that either is ineffective for self defense.

3-How many techniques do you use personally??

By this he meant that even though I "knew" and trained with many techniques, I "really" used very few of them in randori/sparring.

I had some answers of course--problem is that they are really good questions, and even thinking about how to answer them helped my to see another perspective.

On a strictly personal note, I hold to the idea that martial system are almost utterly driven by the individuals that use them.

I mean you can't take say wing chuan and aikido and have them "fight"---a system is just a collection of techniques, training and combative philosophy, and THOSE fight nobody.

Its people that fight--and people have a vast range of abilities and skills.

I often think of martial arts as being in school---you all go to more or less the same classes, same teachers, same textbooks, at the same time of day, etc.
But not everyone is a "A" student.
What you get is a "range from "F" to "A"--with a lot of in between--in fact, statistically speaking, MOST folks are going to end up "in between" no matter what art they take.


Chris Thomas

[don]

Huh? Oh....THAT kind of coke...

Ha!

On a teacher's salary?! Dream on.

My intoxicants of choice remain classes well-taught, beautiful women, Jon Stewart's commentary, Maureen Dowd's acid tongue, and the occasional beer, not necessarily in order.

[Blackwood]

I coodinated a multi-style demonstration. One of the individuals was ranked in both Aikido and Aikijutsu.

His description of the difference brought out an excellent differentiation:

Aikido = Policeman - to serve and protect - There is concern for the well being of the other party.
Aikijutsu = Soldier - to kill