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Thread: Learning a Language of Martial Art

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    Default Learning a Language of Martial Art

    I am not quite sure how to put this.

    But is it necessary to learn a language of a particular martial art influenced from its particular culture?

    Per example, should it be consider a neccesity to learn Japanese when studying a Japanese Art?

    Although, maybe not becoming fluent in the language, is it considered ostentatious to learn only the commands in symbology of the methods?
    Richard Scardina

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    A necessity? No. An advantage? Yes.

    As for ostentatiousness, ostentatious is as ostentatious does. If I were to start a dojo in the States, I would like to familiarize my students with the etiquette of the hombu in Japan, so that they may practice there someday and understand what to do and what's being said. A key element there would be someone who understood the Japanese idiomatically. If no one (including the instructor) could speak Japanese or understand the terms at first hand, there'd be no point, and the Japanese terms would simply become shibboleths.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

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    I think it is necessary to become familiar with the language and culture to better understand the concepts and the reasons behind the techniques or teaching methods.

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    Some may argue to learn a language in martial arts is a waste of time as it doesn't aid in the actual physical applicayions of fisticuffs.

    It would be like having to learn Japanese when going to eat at a Japanese restaurant in a English-speaking country, such as the U.S.
    Richard Scardina

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickster View Post
    It would be like having to learn Japanese when going to eat at a Japanese restaurant in a English-speaking country, such as the U.S.
    No, it would be like having to learn Japanese when studying Japanese dance in an English-speaking country, such as the U.S.

    Or, it would be like having to learn French or Italian when studying fencing in an English-speaking country, such as the U.S.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

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    You can, certainly, learn the _techniques_ of an art without any effort to learn the language, culture or history of that art, but you will not have learned much of the _art_ itself.
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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    My personal perspective; your mileage may vary.

    You ought to learn some of the language, if only the words of command and instruction. English, for instance, is the international language of air traffic control and boxing. Japanese is the language of judo. Korean is the language of taekwondo. Etc.

    Put another way, if you're going to do kendo, you'd best learn terms such as men, do, kote.

    Cultural concepts can be learned in one's own language. Concepts can be translated; anyone who says they cannot simply does not know the concepts well enough to explain them. (The translation may be inelegant, but it gets the point across just fine.)

    And therein lies the problem. Often, the people explaining things to you can't explain them clearly in their own languages. Thus, when they start getting into translations, they get all messed up.

    Examples are terms such as budo, bushido, and Zen in the Art of Archery.

    To get around the latter problem, read large quantities of academic material on the topic, discuss with the professor, and after awhile, eventually you get a pretty good handle on most terms.

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    But the dialect of a language is not the sole understandting of it via a martial art. In some cultures, such language per commands are not always understood, with same meaning, within that same culture.
    Richard Scardina

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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer View Post
    No, it would be like having to learn Japanese when studying Japanese dance in an English-speaking country, such as the U.S.

    Or, it would be like having to learn French or Italian when studying fencing in an English-speaking country, such as the U.S.
    Actually the funny thing is that you do learn some French when studying Fencing:
    En garde: French for "on guard"

    and other non English terms:
    Plastron, Quarte, Quinte, Riposte

    And you use the metric system:
    One-metre penalty: A penalty where the action is moved a metre further back on the piste for the offending fencer before a bout is restarted.

    It's difficult to teach anything from one society/culture to another without transferring some of the original culture.
    It may be for the simple reason that a word does not have an equivalent term in the new society.
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
    - Doug Perry -Hanshi, KuDan -Shorin Ryu ShorinKan

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    Good post JS3

    But the real kicker, is that meodern English, as most know it, are actually derritives from other languages, esp Latin, so learning English puts us closer to Latin culture?
    Richard Scardina

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickster View Post
    ...English, as most know it, [is] actually [derived] from other languages, esp Latin...
    Actually, from what I understand, there is not nearly as much Latin influence on English as there is on the romance languages; Italian and Spanish, for example, have much more in common with Latin (and thus with each other) than does English.

    English is derived from Anglo-Frisian, Lower Saxon, Norman, and Celtic languages, and yes, some Latin. The nearest relative of English is Scots, followed by the Frisian language of the Netherlands and Northwestern Germany, followed by the western-germanic languages (German, Dutch, Afrikaans), followed by the northern-germanic languages of Scandinavia.

    The Latin and Greek influences are mostly in the form of "borrowed" words used as technical, legal, and medical jargon.

    HTH.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    Actually, from what I understand, there is not nearly as much Latin influence on English as there is on the romance languages; Italian and Spanish, for example, have much more in common with Latin (and thus with each other) than does English.

    English is derived from Anglo-Frisian, Lower Saxon, Norman, and Celtic languages, and yes, some Latin. The nearest relative of English is Scots, followed by the Frisian language of the Netherlands and Northwestern Germany, followed by the western-germanic languages (German, Dutch, Afrikaans), followed by the northern-germanic languages of Scandinavia.

    The Latin and Greek influences are mostly in the form of "borrowed" words used as technical, legal, and medical jargon.

    HTH.
    Sir, you are correct. Latin is not the largest, nor one of the largest, influences in modern English "as most know it", or in any other fashion.

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    I stand corrected, but it wasnt my point
    Richard Scardina

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    Some thoughts (not necessarily well thought out):

    1. Learning the "language" of the martial arts usually implies learning the jargon for that particular art. - e.g. go to a Shotokan dojo anywhere in the world and you will get the command "gedan barai". No matter what your native language is, no matter what the language of the country/region that dojo is in, the command will be (approximately) the same.

    2. It is jargon related specifically to your art. - e.g. the Shotokan "soto uke" and Shito Ryu "uchi uke" are the same technique, and vice versa. Shotokan has a kata called "Enpi", as does Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, but you can guarantee that the two are not even distantly related.

    3. Language IN CONTEXT has meaning. Tell my Japanese wife "shihonage" will result in blank stares. Tell my friends from my old Aikido dojo in Australia "shihonage" will result in a certain technique.

    4. Sometimes language is best translated. The JKA in Australia has decided that the Dojo Kun should be recited in the origninal language (Japanese). I personally don't agree with this, as the power of the meaning is lost on non-Japanese speakers.

    Feel free to cut me down if I'm wrong.
    Andrew Smallacombe

    Aikido Kenshinkai

    JKA Tokorozawa

    Now trotting over a bridge near you!

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    I guess it could looked upon as another virtue in martial arts that requires discipline and passion.

    Though it doesn't aid in fighting/combat-

    Hmmn, or does it.

    Does such things give a better sense of the calm mind, thus giving harmony in case of combat?

    (REF-Samurai and Zen, Buddhist Monks and Hostile Aggression)

    It may not be in the analogy of getting a new car, and learning the detailed mechanics of it in order to make repairs. However, it may be in the anaolgy that one chooses the car for all of the extra features they desire which accomodates. Thus giving better appreciation for their selection.




    I dont know, maybe I rant too much.
    Richard Scardina

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