Skill Transfer

[Paul_Green]

Yay! I get to have everyone get angry and annoyed at me again!

Please have some patience with me.
A few questions about transfer of skills.

1.How well will Kenjutsu skills transfer to other sword arts, like HEMA, or Kung Fu sword techniques?

2. How well will katana techniques work with various other swords, assuming that the wielder knows the principles of the sword, but does not have any training in addition to kenjutsu? Ex. Daos and sabers cut, Jians and rapiers thrust, long swords do both, ect.

3. My school has some two sword techniques. They striked me as being similar to kama videos i have seen. How well will katana techniques work with kama, or other small weapons such as tonfa or deer horn knives.

I know im asking vague questions, and im not sure if i can state them better.
I guess in a sense, i dont really know the nature of the questions.

Thanks
Paul Green

[DDATFUS]

Hi Paul,

I can't claim to be an expert here, but you might find an interesting answer to your question in one of the maxims of the International Hoplology Society: "one mind, any weapon." The founder of the IHS was a koryu kenjutsu practitioner, as are the people currently leading the IHS. They have all believed that the point of true military training arts is to teach fundamental combat principles that apply to any weapon.

A great example of this is the way that many koryu schools have almost identical kata for different weapons. In an essay in one of Diane Skoss's books, Liam Keeley describes how some of the sword kata for Tatsumi Ryu are almost identical to the Tatsumi Ryu short staff kata or the kodachi kata, with only minor variations for the changes of the weapon. The idea is that someone who truly understands the fundamental techniques that lie at the core of the school should be able to apply those techniques with any weapon. Will a technique for a katana work perfectly for a dao? Maybe, maybe not: there will be differences in balance, cutting ability, etc., that you might have to adjust for. But the basics facts related to cutting a human-sized target with a sword won't change. Perhaps a technique that depends on the curve of the sword wouldn't transfer well to a straight weapon. Perhaps when fencing Western-style and using huge lunging thrusts one will have to radically adjust concepts of maai. But at the end of the day, you are still using a sharp piece of steel of a certain length to inflict damage on a human body, and there are really only so many ways to do that.

Just my .02. Though with this economy, I'll be lucky to find someone willing to pay that much.

[Ken-Hawaii]

Paul, I can certainly vouch for the fact that MJER waza don't translate at all well to European fencing techniques.

Totally different timing, ma-ai, center of balance, arm/wrist/shoulder/hara movements, etc., etc. And having been a fencer for over 40 years before I took up iaido, my footwork was royally screwed for the first year, too! Sensei's every second word was to correct me on how I moved .

That being said, basic knife-fighting techniques are not a lot different from the katana & kodachi/shoto, but I have the impression that you are looking for a comparison between totally different martial arts that use a blade, right...?

[Stefffen]

Sur your skills will transfer. You are training to kill arent you.

In case you are intersted, here is a thread where people shares some ideas and experience, both from eastern an western community. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...ad.php?t=66959

[cxt]

Paul

Question 1

Maybe a little, maybe a lot, depending on the person using it............and depending on just how narrowly you define "skills transfer"-----its often surprising how many noval applications people can come up with.

Besides---again, depending on just how you define "skill transfer" why couldn't things like "agility", reflex speed, centering etc, "skills" developed on one area "transfer" to another?

Question 2

Nearly entirely dependent on the person using it.........IMO....."styles", if you want to use that term, teach certain things and approaches---but its "people" that actually fight and peoples skills and the circumstances they fight in can and often are vastly different things.

That is largely, IMO a "what if" kinda thing...fun perhaps to speculate about but of little real use.

Question 3

Again, depends on the person.......IMO, how well a given principle can be applied is pretty much dependent on the person using it.

Think about High School, everyone in the same class goes to the same room at the same time of day, uses the same books, gets the same homework, does the same tests, gets the same lecture from the same teacher....but they get VERY different grades/results....some get "A"s some "B's" some "C's".....and some fail.

Everyone has been thu it...nobody thinks this is strange........yet people often forget that lesson when it comes to martial arts.

My guess is that an "A" student can come up with all sorts of stuff..........matters little if were talking about physics or history or martial arts........IMO.

[Finny]

Yay! I get to have everyone get angry and annoyed at me again!

Please have some patience with me.
A few questions about transfer of skills.

1.How well will Kenjutsu skills transfer to other sword arts, like HEMA, or Kung Fu sword techniques?

2. How well will katana techniques work with various other swords, assuming that the wielder knows the principles of the sword, but does not have any training in addition to kenjutsu? Ex. Daos and sabers cut, Jians and rapiers thrust, long swords do both, ect.

3. My school has some two sword techniques. They striked me as being similar to kama videos i have seen. How well will katana techniques work with kama, or other small weapons such as tonfa or deer horn knives.


I guess in a sense, i dont really know the nature of the questions.

Thanks
Paul Green

It kind of shows.

1. - How would you measure or define "skill transfer" from JSA (Japanese Sword Arts) to "Kung Fu sword techniques"??

The only "kung fu sword techniques" Im aware of are single person forms, often performed with imitation/stage weaponry (ie tinfoil swords) that are usually clearly intended as cultural artifacts and performance art, not legitimate combat weapon training. Of course there are exceptions to the rule, but I think 99% of the Chinese MA weaponry I've seen would fit this characterisation.

2 - Katana techniques will NOT work very well with other swords, unless (like a miao dao) they are nearly identical to a katana, just have a different name. This should really be obvious. You can't shoot a cannon with the same technique as shooting a recurve bow.

2 - Again, two sword techniques use SWORDS - kama are sickles with unique characteristics as a weapon. Tonfa are again, pretty much as far from a katana as you can get in terms of functionality. And deer horn knives, well; they are small hand held knives, unique to Baguazhang, and favoured by that style due to the nature of Bagua training and style. Bagua is a style heavily focused on mobility in footwork, summed up I guess by the word 'change' - Bagua is usually called a 'Taoist' style, related closely (in some lineages) to the I-Ching. As a result, Bagua practitioners/lineages have historically favoured small, double weapons like deer horn knives, 'chicken knives', emei needles etc.


In short - No, the skills (except in the broadest of terms) you use with Japanese swords will not translate to other, completely different weaponry.

[Kim Taylor]

1.How well will Kenjutsu skills transfer to other sword arts, like HEMA, or Kung Fu sword techniques?

2. How well will katana techniques work with various other swords, assuming that the wielder knows the principles of the sword, but does not have any training in addition to kenjutsu? Ex. Daos and sabers cut, Jians and rapiers thrust, long swords do both, ect.

3. My school has some two sword techniques. They striked me as being similar to kama videos i have seen. How well will katana techniques work with kama, or other small weapons such as tonfa or deer horn knives.

Thanks
Paul Green

First, don't ever say in your new class that you are "getting" the new skills because you practiced another martial art. In fact, don't tell anyone you learned another martial art or your instructors will spend large amounts of time telling you that you can't use the skills you learned somewhere else in the new art.

Now, will your skills transfer, of course they will. Any two handed weapon will move in roughly the same way, there are only so many directions we can move our hands, arms and shoulders and most sword arts will experiment with all of them, then concentrate on the ones that work best.

One of the major criticisms of the western martial arts groups is that they are taking the old manuals and trying to copy them but are "just tacking on the movement skills of the Japanese arts". In other words there is an acknowledgment on many sides that there is/may be crossover and there is some question as to whether there should be. For myself I'm pretty sure that a German twohander would look a lot like a Japanese two-hander in a lot of the techniques and would look quite different in others. Both are going to be very concerned with the centreline of the body.

Same for your kama and two-sword techniques, yes your arm movements will look and feel roughly similar, how many ways can you wave a couple of blades around without cutting your own arm? Not a huge number. Will you make different motions with a kama and a sword? Absolutely but the gross arm movements will be similar.

More important than all this will be your footwork which is the basis of all weapon arts. There are vanishingly small movements that get you out of the way of your opponent's sword while leaving you in the range to counterattack. This automatic knowledge of position will carry over, despite the similarities or differences of the footwork.

Finally, kenjutsu techniques are going to transfer to any weapon that you can put two hands on. Whether or not this will be a good way to fight is another question. A naginata or a poleaxe may not be moving as fast as a katana but you will be able to use the same techniques. A cane, a stick, a bicycle chain will all work with various kenjutsu techniques if you can adapt yourself to them. It takes a flexible mind.

Kim Taylor

[Paul_Green]

Thanks

It appears we have some varying opinions, though...

Should be fun .


Paul Green

[Josh Reyer]

Paul, some food for your thoughts.

Many kenjutsu schools, particularly of the Sengoku and early Edo periods, are called "heiho" or "hyoho"; two different ways to read the same characters: 兵法. Among such schools are Katori Shinto Ryu Heiho, Shinkage-ryu Heiho, Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, Tatsumi-ryu Heiho, and Jigen-ryu Hyoho. "Heiho/Hyoho" literally translated is "combat principles", and is defined as "the way of doing battle", so it's often glossed as "strategy". In fact, Sun-Tzu's "Art of War" in the original Chinese simply has the title: Bing-fa 兵法, and in Japan it's known as "Sonshi no Heiho": Sun-Tzu's Heiho.

Due to the use of the word by many kenjutsu schools, the word "heiho/hyoho" in Japanese became virtually synonymous with classical schools of combat. One definition in the Kojien (in addition to "way of doing battle") is "Bujutsu, e.g. kenjutsu." The reason this came about (and a large reason why the sword became paramount in the Edo period) was because it was felt that the sword was the most universal weapon to train in. Not in the sense that by learning sword techniques one could then be technically proficient in any other weapon, but that sword training created the proper mindset and body skills to take any weapon into battle against any other. The sword cuts, it sweeps, it stabs. It is short enough to provide understanding of infighting (short-swords, daggers, and grappling), and also long and heavy enough to also provide an understanding of long range weapons like the naginata and spear. A particular school's approach to combat, it's combat principles, it's way of doing battle, could be easily and comprehensively encoded in kata using katana.

One example of this is Katori Shinto-ryu, in which kirikomi (the student role) is always matched against an opponent with a sword. Rather than create kata that were spear vs sword, spear vs. spear, spear vs. nito, and so on, (which would have been the most "practical" set-up for fighting in the period Katori Shinto-ryu was founded in), instead the practitioner first learned kenjutsu, and then as they learned other weapons their uketachi was always wielding a sword.

Another example is Shinkage-ryu. Another Sengoku period art that one might think would have best spent its time on spear kata. It's founder, Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, was renowned as a spearsman. He was a practitioner of Shinto-ryu, which teaches spear technique, and Nen-ryu, which also has spear technique. No doubt his creation, Shinkage-ryu, was meant to be compatible with the spear, naginata, bow, and other weapons. But when he met Yagyu Munetoshi, another renowned spearsman, and taught him Shinkage-ryu over the course of three years, they didn't work on spear at all. Munetoshi already understood spear technique. They worked solely on kenjutsu, because the heiho could be entirely contained in that.

This is, in a sense, the mistake with being too hung up on technique with classical kenjutsu schools. Of course, all technique should be sound, but the goal of proper kenjutsu schools is not to teach sword technique per se, but to teach the heiho -- the general body skills and mental approach to combat. How to move, how to perceive, how to think (and act without thinking). The technique is localized and limited to fighting with katana. The heiho should be applicable to anything, from other weapons, to sports, to social interaction.

[Stefffen]

This is, in a sense, the mistake with being too hung up on technique with classical kenjutsu schools. Of course, all technique should be sound, but the goal of proper kenjutsu schools is not to teach sword technique per se, but to teach the heiho -- the general body skills and mental approach to combat. How to move, how to perceive, how to think (and act without thinking). The technique is localized and limited to fighting with katana. The heiho should be applicable to anything, from other weapons, to sports, to social interaction.

Listen listen!

[Paul_Green]

Actually, that sounds like my Sensei.

When he shows us a new technique, he shows us how and why it works, and how its applies to other arts and weapons.

We dont practice the techniques with any weapon other than the sword, at least in the kenjustu class (my sensei does when he teaches other classes), but it helps with understanding.


I will take this level of teaching as a good sign.


Thanks
Paul Green

[K. Cantwell]

On the one hand, I am a proponent of the idea of core principles.

On the other hand, I firmly believe that you need "time on the weapon."

In Toda-ha Buko-ryu, for example, we have naginata vs. naginata, naginata vs. tachi, & naginata vs. yari. (There are more sets, but this will make my point, I think.)

Certainly there are core principles of maai, but the various weapons work differently. Trying to learn those various weapons against the naginata is quite a challenge.

Before taking up Buko-ryu, I had a decent amount of experience in Shinto Muso-ryu and while some gross skills transfered, the specific skills required for the specific weapons did not.

Perhaps I had a bit of a pedagogical advantage over someone that had no experience, but there is still a steep didactic curve. The naginata does not exactly work like a sword. (Nor will the kusarigama.) There are hand changes and weight issues that require vastly different mechanics. Takuan Soho may say they should be the same and that may be the ultimate goal, but as a matter of practical reality, there are significant differences that should not be dismissed.

I think sometimes we skip over the mechanics, treating them a base entities while we reach into the heavens of parsimony. While I believe we should see the forest for the trees, we should acknowledge that some of those trees are different and we can't just put them all on the same truck to the mill. We may just have to diferentiate.

As I said, I think the ultimate goal is to see everything as "all of a piece." I think that only comes, however, when one assimilates the differences. To do this, one must master the individual skills each weapon demands. I've heard, "It's the same, but different" legion times in my training. I think the idea is that the principle is the same as something I've previously been exposed to, but the means to fulfilling that principle is different with the weapon I have in my hand. This, I think, is pretty important.

Kevin Cantwell

[Stefffen]

On the other hand, I firmly believe that you need "time on the weapon."

All true. Being good at the sword does not give you super skills in using a stick. You do need training in one to become grate in it. But i suspects that was not what Paul was asking for. Rather if some skills transfers. Being good with the katana I imagine you can do wonders with the German longsword. But of course training allot in the German longsword gives you a window in the detail use of it, rather than the general.
But most important, harm without being harmed, no matter what, and this transfers very well.

[Josh Reyer]

On the one hand, I am a proponent of the idea of core principles.

On the other hand, I firmly believe that you need "time on the weapon."

Mr. Cantwell, I agree with this and everything else you wrote. However, to my thinking that falls under "technical skills", which as I suggested would not transfer. The skills I'm referring to are of a much more non-specific nature.

As an example, one sempai I have joined Hozoin-ryu sojutsu after twenty-some years of Shinkage-ryu. The long, heavy spears of Hozoin-ryu are naturally quite different in use and feel from a katana or fukuro-shinai, and the kata are all spear vs. spear, so one might have questioned how much his Shinkage-ryu experience would transfer. However, due to the body skills he'd developed from Shinkage-ryu, he was able to gain mokuroku (one level below menkyo-kaiden) in merely six years. After the initial acclimation period, improvement was fast. He already knew how to move mind and body as one, and body and sword as one, so it was simply a matter of some time on the spear to learn how to move body and spear as one.

This is the kind of thing I was trying to point to.

[Ken-Hawaii]

However, due to the body skills he'd developed from Shinkage-ryu, he was able to gain mokuroku (one level below menkyo-kaiden) in merely six years.

Hey, Josh, just one quick correction to the above. Here are the martial arts certifications as I've been taught them:

Menkyo Kaiden = License of total transmission & certificate of full proficiency

Menkyo = Authorized to teach

Gomokuroku = Qualified instructor

Shomokuroku = Assistant instructor

Okuiri = Enter into art

Mokuroku simply means "on the scrolls," which is translated differently in different martial arts. So perhaps that sempai wasn't quite as far along as he indicated....

Ken