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Thread: Favorite Aikido & Aiki Jujutsu technique for practical self-defense drills

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    Default Favorite Aikido & Aiki Jujutsu technique for practical self-defense drills

    Hello all,

    I'd like to ask for my Aikido & Aiki Jujutsu friends here for opinions regarding Aikido & Aiki Jujutsu technique drills which are suitable for practical self-defense drills, and can be taught within short-time (say, around 14 sessions).

    I think all te-hodoki (wrist grab releases) should be simple enough to be taught within 10-12 sessions, and the simple jaw push (ago oshi/aigamae ate) also does not require too much sessions to learn. For ushiro-waza, I think kote hineri/sankyo against rear double wrist grab and rear bear hug (around the shoulders) also does not require much sessions to learn.

    Other techniques I have in mind are tai sabaki footwork (irimi and tenkan) to avoid punches.

    Any further opinion?
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Hi Ben,
    I hope you don't mind a non-aikidoka responding (actually I 'dabble' in aikido, but not in a meaningful way).
    Just as an observation, if practical self-defence is your intention then your starting point really needs to be the attacks rather than the responses.

    I say this because whilst there are very valid reasons for practicing against (for example) two handed wrist grabs from the rear, this is not a realistic attack that one would need to deal with. More useful would be responses to haymakers, collar grabs etc, all of which should be relatively easy to adapt normal technique to (Yokomen uchi responses, etc). It would probably do well to keep the techniques at the simpler end of the spectrum.

    Anyway, just my random thoughts on the topic, give them no greater weight that that.
    Good Luck
    Paul

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    Hello paul san,

    Wow, excellent advice!

    So I will revise my question and start with a list of common attacks and their scenario.

    Let's begin..

    1. Rear double-handed grab on one wrist ("kidnapping" scenario)
    2. Rear double wrist grab (another "kidnapping" scenario)
    3. Rear single wrist grab with head lock ("hostage" scenario)
    4. Drunken right hand swinging punch ("against the drunk" scenario)
    5. Drunken series of wild swinging punches (another "against the drunk" scenario)
    6. Grab lapel and punch ("stupid debt collector" scenario)
    7. Double lapel grab and knee to stomach (another "debt collector" scenario)
    8. Grab shoulder from behind, follow with punch to nose ("sucker punch" scenario)
    9. Kick to the groin ("dirty fighting" scenario)
    10. Wrestling-style double-leg takedown ("picking fights with Hulk Hogan" scenario)
    11. Opponent is mounted on Tori's chest and punching Tori's face ("Oh sh*t!" scenario)
    12. Rear Bear Hugs (around the shoulder and around the waist)


    What would be a proper aikido/aiki jujutsu response to above attacks? I am sure the response should include some kind of atemi..
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    My own guess would be...:

    1. Rear double-handed grab on one wrist ("kidnapping" scenario)

    Sokuto-geri to Uke's shin or knee, then follow up with te-hodoki

    2. Rear double wrist grab (another "kidnapping" scenario)

    Stomp Uke's instep, then follow up with sankyo

    3. Rear single wrist grab with head lock ("hostage" scenario)

    Stomp Uke's instep (especially useful with spiked heels), follow up with sankyo

    4. Drunken right hand swinging punch ("against the drunk" scenario)

    Tai-sabaki to avoid the punches

    5. Drunken series of wild swinging punches (another "against the drunk" scenario)

    Get into a clinch, attack a kyusho, use jaw push to push Uke away, then run!

    6. Grab lapel and punch ("stupid debt collector" scenario)

    No idea. Any idea? I think we should deal with the punch first, either by a parry and a block, then follow up with any good kansetsu-waza technique applied to the grabbing hand (perhaps nikyo?)

    7. Double lapel grab and knee to stomach (another "debt collector" scenario)

    No idea what kind of aikido technique will work for this one..

    8. Grab shoulder from behind, follow with punch to nose ("sucker punch" scenario)

    parry the punch and apply some kind of wrist lock (nikyo?) to the grabbing hand

    9. Kick to the groin ("dirty fighting" scenario)

    No idea, I think official aikikai aikido syllabus does not have waza against kinteki geri.. although I suspect some kind of tai-sabaki must be useful in this situation..

    10. Wrestling-style double-leg takedown ("picking fights with Hulk Hogan" scenario)

    Again, no idea what aikido technique will work. In Jujutsu, we sprawl against the takedown attempt.

    11. Opponent is mounted on Tori's chest and punching Tori's face ("Oh sh*t!" scenario)

    I am sure there are some kokyu-nage that will work, though I never seen any aikido teacher showing it..

    12. Rear Bear Hugs (around the shoulder and around the waist)

    I will use sankyo, and maybe sokumen irimi..



    Any other idea?
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Ey Ben, just a few random bits...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    My own guess would be...:

    1. Rear double-handed grab on one wrist ("kidnapping" scenario)

    Sokuto-geri to Uke's shin or knee, then follow up with te-hodoki
    We are teached to atemi+taisabaki+tehodoki all at the same time, instead of 1-2-3. Specially for self defense situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    2. Rear double wrist grab (another "kidnapping" scenario)

    Stomp Uke's instep, then follow up with sankyo
    If this grab is completed, and student has no kokyu abilities, you should forget sankyo. Try sukuinage or dogaeshi/gedan'ate instead, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    3. Rear single wrist grab with head lock ("hostage" scenario)

    Stomp Uke's instep (especially useful with spiked heels), follow up with sankyo
    Same as before.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    4. Drunken right hand swinging punch ("against the drunk" scenario)

    Tai-sabaki to avoid the punches
    Plus tatetsuki, agoatenage, yokomen'uchi...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    5. Drunken series of wild swinging punches (another "against the drunk" scenario)

    Get into a clinch, attack a kyusho, use jaw push to push Uke away, then run!
    Same as before.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    6. Grab lapel and punch ("stupid debt collector" scenario)

    No idea. Any idea? I think we should deal with the punch first, either by a parry and a block, then follow up with any good kansetsu-waza technique applied to the grabbing hand (perhaps nikyo?)
    What about osotogari here? Forget the grabbing hand as it's busy and not t threat. Trap the punching arm a la kannukigatame and osotogari him. Works too for haymaker, swinging punch, etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    7. Double lapel grab and knee to stomach (another "debt collector" scenario)

    No idea what kind of aikido technique will work for this one..
    Dogaeshi, perhaps with a previous gedanjujiuke or hikitsuki?

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    8. Grab shoulder from behind, follow with punch to nose ("sucker punch" scenario)

    parry the punch and apply some kind of wrist lock (nikyo?) to the grabbing hand
    Yeah, taisabaki+tatetsuki+nikyo. Or again osotogari.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    9. Kick to the groin ("dirty fighting" scenario)

    No idea, I think official aikikai aikido syllabus does not have waza against kinteki geri.. although I suspect some kind of tai-sabaki must be useful in this situation..
    Sokumen'iriminage work wonders here.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    10. Wrestling-style double-leg takedown ("picking fights with Hulk Hogan" scenario)

    Again, no idea what aikido technique will work. In Jujutsu, we sprawl against the takedown attempt.
    Taisabaki (nagashi) + katahaotoshi, as seen in jutsuri no kata. Best with shuto to uke's neck.

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    11. Opponent is mounted on Tori's chest and punching Tori's face ("Oh sh*t!" scenario)

    I am sure there are some kokyu-nage that will work, though I never seen any aikido teacher showing it..
    I would try kannukigatame or udegatame. Not sure though...

    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    12. Rear Bear Hugs (around the shoulder and around the waist)

    I will use sankyo, and maybe sokumen irimi..
    Seoinage (if around the shoulders) or sokumen'iriminage (if around the waist)? I would forget sankyo against strong oponents.

    Hope not to sound cool, but this is my own idea of fast-to-learn waza without spending years developing kokyu.

    Sampai jumpa!
    Alejandro Villanueva.


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    Ben, I agree that a lot of aikido is too complicated to use for practical self defense after just a short period of training (kokyu waza, sankyo etc.)
    I'd go for lots of atemi and iriminage (particularly the type that starts off as atemi).
    Don't forget about moving so graps cannot be applied fully.

    Good luck!
    Andrew Smallacombe

    Aikido Kenshinkai

    JKA Tokorozawa

    Now trotting over a bridge near you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew S View Post
    I'd go for lots of atemi and iriminage (particularly the type that starts off as atemi).
    Don't forget about moving so graps cannot be applied fully.
    My thoughts, too.

    David
    David Orange, Jr.

    -------------------------------------------------------

    "That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
    Lao Tzu

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    Thank you Alex san, Orange sensei and Andrew san for all of your thoughts!

    Other friends please share your thoughts?

    Also, what if the students (or in many cases sensei) of aikido comments "..But it does not looks like aikido, too many atemi and non-standard techniques!.." how should we respond?

    I think a simple "but they are simple!" response will not be easily accepted by senior aikido people, whom are well-known for being very articulate in expressing their thoughts..
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    Oh, that... then you must point them to the Noma Dojo series or to O'Sensei's Budo. I don't care anymore about people saying what I'm doing is no Aikido. So, osotogari is not Aikido? Says Who Sensei? As fas as I'm concerned it's the principals, not the technical cathalog, what makes Aikido... well... Aikido. I know we agree on this one too, Ben Sensei
    Alejandro Villanueva.


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    Yes ALex san, we agree about a lot of things, and that was one of them!

    BTW,people keep on telling me that the "Budo Renshu" book written by O-sensei and illustrated by Kunigoshi Takako sensei contains many techniques which are more self-defense oriented, and no longer common in modern Aikido. I never owned that book though. Do you have that book Alex san, and is that book still available?
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    "Budo Renshu" is available in English as "Budo Training in Aikido" and you can get it at Amazon.com
    <http://www.amazon.com/Budo-Training-Aikido-Morihei-Ueshiba/dp/0870409824>
    Jim Baker
    Aikido of Norfolk

    ""While the chicken is unharmed, Babineau said, the sheep seemed distraught from the experience."

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_lord_b3 View Post
    Do you have that book Alex san, and is that book still available?
    Yes, indeed. Quite a book, and an eye opener one. But many disregard it as being "Aikibudo" or simple and rude "Aikijujutsu" or "Aikijutsu" (sic) because of the date it was written. Anyway just look at the last days of the founder in Iwama. You can still very well recognize the book's techniques and spirit in present day Iwama Ryu.

    But this is the same old story going on and on for eons.

    Good link, Jim.
    Alejandro Villanueva.


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    wow, thanks guys!
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    we playtesting the techniques a bit last sunday and we found out that yubidori works very well to help break open some of the tight holds!
    Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).

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    I know I might not have agreed to my own answer some years ago, but in my opion, you are going on the wrong track.

    Aikido is not designed to learn in a short time.


    Thewre are no Aikido techniques. Those techniques come from Ju-Jutsu styles. While the techniques themselvs are useful (but not some variation which areare taught in some Aikido Dojos), the technical approach of Aikido with those techniques is useless while teaching in a short time frame.

    The way of teaching Aikido is designed (with a good teacher) to teach the Art, with focus on softness (mind and body), flow, mae, body movement and power, technical approach not the practical technique. There is a reason for focusing on these elements, they are the real power multipliers, not the techniques. But, it is impossible to learn them in a short time.

    Hence, if you teach S.D. figitng in a short time, I would not base my curriculum on Aikido.


    Amir
    Amir Krause

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