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Thread: Question about Guy Power's Info

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    Default Question about Guy Power's Info

    Hi Folks:

    If I'm lucky Guy will pick-up on this. If not, maybe someone can help me in my research. I recently tripped across Power Sensei's comments regarding the history of Toyama-Ryu on his website. Here is what I understood.

    The first Officer's Academy taught sword but was predicated on French and later Prussian methods. This carried forward to the Toyama Academy when it opened. I'm left to consider that when the Japanese came to Korea it was this sword (single-hand sabre; European architecture) that they taught at the Police Acedemy and later to the Korean military.

    Later there is a report that because of the poor performance of the Japanese swordsmanship during the Manchurian Incursion (1932), efforts were made to reinstate the use of the long sword (katana) which occurred in 1939. I would then imagine that all Army units as well as candidates in training in both Toyama and in Manchuria at the Singyong Academy would have trained with the long sword and that the only other folks who advocated long sword tradition would have been the BUTOKUKAI and BUTOKUKAI - CHOSON ...... and, of course the Kendo folks later on, right?

    What I am having a hard time getting my head around is the nature of the sword used in Toyama training between 1900 and 1939. Was it a single hand or two-handed sabre. I seem to recall a report that Toyama-Ryu had its start under Nakamura in 1925. Help? Anyone?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    cannot speak with Guy's scholarly knowledge, but as I understand it, the western sword/saber (kyugunto) was an artifact of the Meiji period. As the Taisho and then Showa emperors came to power, the pendulum swung back to Japanese nationalism, to include sword training. 1925 is the date I have seen associated with Nakamaya Hakudo and committee forming Gunto Soho for the Toyama Academy. There was also a slightly later(?) although mostly parallel effort to teach basic Japanese style swordsmanship at the Naval Academy. The MJER preserve some of this training. Have no knowledge of what have have shown up in Korea. The reference I have seen to poor sword performance was more about the swords not standing up to extreme cold (which led to developing mantetsu, or Koa Isshin Mantetsu, from Manchurian steel), not about the style or training.

    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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    Just a follow-up question:

    I have a boot-leg copy of Naked Blade and wanted to know if the video tape of Nakamura Sensei executing TOYAMA-RYU techniques could be expected to coincide with the same material in the tape. The reason that I ask is that five methods (K. "BEOP") of the HWARANG KUMDO manual bear an amazing resemblance to this material, and by tying these three items together it may provide a provenance for that material. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere View Post
    ...I have a boot-leg copy of Naked Blade and wanted to know if the video tape of Nakamura Sensei executing TOYAMA-RYU techniques could be expected to coincide with the same material in the tape.
    Just to clarify, do you have Naked Blade or Chrimson Steel?

    I have Naked Blade in book form, but wasn't aware of a video by that name. I also have Crimson Steel in book form, and there is a video by that title.

    Obata Sensei was a student of Nakamura Sensei, and prior to forming his own Shinkendo organization was teaching Nakamura Ryu, of which Toyama Ryu is a root. So there should be a good correlation between the material in the various sources.

    HTH.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Owens View Post
    Just to clarify, do you have Naked Blade or Chrimson Steel?

    I have Naked Blade in book form, but wasn't aware of a video by that name. I also have Crimson Steel in book form, and there is a video by that title.

    Obata Sensei was a student of Nakamura Sensei, and prior to forming his own Shinkendo organization was teaching Nakamura Ryu, of which Toyama Ryu is a root. So there should be a good correlation between the material in the various sources.

    HTH.
    Oppsss....my bad.......a bit of clarification.

    I have both Naked Blade and Crimson Steel but mentioned only the former as I thought it might be the older of the two.

    The tape that I have is a VHS tape from CHAMP out of Japan (Champ @ Karatedo.co.jp) and has an image of Nakamura Sensei on the front. Does that help?

    BTW: The tradition of Korean sword I practice exhibits traits of a number of practices with the five cutting methods (demonstrating drawing, cutting and resheathing) bearing a strong resemblance to what I see in Naked Blade.
    Our two-man (J. KUMITACHI) hyung also have a slight resemblance to one of the three variants of TOYAMA-RYU but I am not informed enough to hazard a guess which of the three is the closest approximation.

    I'm hoping that I can corral one of my students into overcoming their camera-shyness and help me produce a clip of the 8 methods for people to reflect on. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Last edited by glad2bhere; 22nd March 2009 at 14:21.
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Default bootleg?

    Bruce,
    whether it coincides or not, I don't think it would be much help. Lots of folks doing lots of different variations of the Toyama forms. No surprise that it may have spread to Korea. Comparing a book and video to your style may bring some insight into your style, but is unlikely to contribute much without some training in the variations shown in the book and video. It is all about context, not technique. The 'why', not the 'how'. IMO.

    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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    Thanks, Dave. Of course, in the end you are right. The Koreans, themselves, are terrible about owning the origins and circumstances regarding much of what they have "borrowed" to develop their own traditions. Admittedly, this is much more of an academic effort than anything else. In reality the whole subject can get pretty touchy and most of the players would probably wish this part of history away. Still, I think we have a valuable opportunity to record and reflect on the manner in which MA spreads, develops, is preserved and then promoted.

    Everybody needs a hobby, right?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    no problem. If we ever get a chance to compare notes (swing swords), would be happy to. Have a couple of similar projects floating around out there. Someone in your neck of the woods wanted to do a comparison of kamae (positions) and basics between western and Japanese styles. That could be interesting.

    Dave
    Dave Drawdy
    "the artist formerly known as Sergeant Major"

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    That would be great. I am long overdue to spend some time at the Library of Congress. Didn't make it there a couple of years ago and I am probably about due to take another crack at it.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    I had the opportunity of training with a yondan at the local taekwondo class who was trying to promote korean sword...it came across as an interesting combination of Chinese broadsword work, MJER/Toyama ryu and a bit of taekwondo...
    What spoiled it for me was the rather awful 'wallhanger' that looked like it had been picked up from a junkshop...
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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    Yeah.... I don't know what it is about TKD people that they have such a hunger to make things up when its really not necessary.

    For myself, I see significant influence of both Toyama-Ryu and Keishi-Ryu on the long sword material and not a little Chinese broadsword in the YEDO material. The single piece unaccounted for seems to be the GEOM or Chinese JIAN material which crops up from time to time but is poorly represented in the martial traditions. Fact is I would bet money that high-ranked Koreans who were able to use a GEOM to good effect probably learned to do so from private tutors rather than official agencies.

    Koreans do a pretty crappy job of safe-guarding their traditions and maybe deserve to lose their heritage because of it. IMHO.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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