Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 17

Thread: Speed Reload

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,161
    Likes (received)
    333

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    45
    Likes (received)
    0

    Thumbs up Old school

    That guy is fast! All the competitive shooters in IPSC are fast like that...

    How about this: 6 rounds, reload, and six more rounds all in 2.9 seconds, and with a wheel gun!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9cc...eature=related

    It's cool that Kit posted the original link. It’s inspiring!

    The reason why those guys can do that is because they practice it ALL OF THE TIME.

    I try to do at least 10 speed reloads and 10 tactical reloads with an empty gun and magazine everyday. The tactical reloads maybe being a bit more important to me than the speed reload as they require more dexterity and hand movements and are harder to do under stress. A fat gun is a happy gun! The instructor there is talking about making sure your index finger is on the nose of the bullet, and I think this is an extremely important habit to develop. Another important habit is to bring the gun into your “workspace”, close to the body to do any manipulations with the gun. Oh and this Army Instructor is wearing a competitive rig, not a duty belt or an off duty rig and it’s built for speed with very little tension holding the magazines into their holders. But I digress… Just practice with the rig you carry in. Practice it everyday!

    I am slower than a guy swimming in cold molasses, but I know I would be slower still if I didn’t practice. And I know that in the stress of a gun fight I wouldn’t be able to do it at all if I didn’t train.

    Thanks Kit.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    163
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    I think it's a great techique for competition but lots of problems on the street when you aren't standing upright, and stress has kicked in. Remembering that his optimal performance is around 140 bpm vs over 200 in a real situation.
    I teach two hands on the gun till you know the mag is gone, bring the gun to the mag not the mag to the gun, strong grip surrounding the base of the mag, and the Glock suggested dropping of the slide by gripping the rear of the slide -not pushing the slide lock lever down-for those reasons.
    Duane
    Duane Wolfe

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    45
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    I think it's a great techique for competition but lots of problems on the street when you aren't standing upright, and stress has kicked in.

    Glock suggested dropping of the slide by gripping the rear of the slide -not pushing the slide lock lever down-for those reasons.
    Duane
    That's why I called the guy an IPSC shooter, and mentioned his rig. Those guys have rigs designed to get the gun out fast, and many use custom made magazines if they are shooting a modified class. IPSC is alot about speed, that's why that guy with the timer follows you as you shoot the course. When people are shooting back at you, pressing the slide release level down is more of a fine motor skill and ripping the slide which is more of a gross motor skill and one you will more likely perform correctly under stress.

    You are right about the Glock, or any 1911 based handgun, but not by grabbing the rear of the slide by pinching it on the end but by reaching over the gun and gripping the top of the rear of the slide and ripping the the slide back and letting go of it. It allows for one to keep the gun tucked into the work space without turning the business end in a bad direction to pinch the rear slide. We don't want to lazer the good guys right! It's a gross motor skill and easy to do without looking at the gun. All of this should be practiced until we can do it without looking at the gun. Dryfiring and manipulation drills are a great way to spend a few idle minutes now and again.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv-eE...om=PL&index=16

    This guy does the classic tap and rock the slide, grabbing it over the top of the rear slide as an example of what I am talking about. But I think maybe this is what you meant anyway Duane, and I just have too much time on my hands here... too much typing and not enough dry firing today.

    Stay safe

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,161
    Likes (received)
    333

    Default

    Hmmm, a debate is in the offing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    I think it's a great techique for competition but lots of problems on the street when you aren't standing upright, and stress has kicked in.
    This is a training issue. Stress will occur, but you can and will remain relatively upright (proper shooting platform) under even "survival" stress if you have trained enough in it.

    "Fetal Fighting Posture" is something I see a LOT during Con Sim training of the average Patrol level officer when you put them through high stress drills and scenarios. Taking a knee without any cover, head down, bringing the gun down, are all common bad habits that should be trained out.




    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    Remembering that his optimal performance is around 140 bpm vs over 200 in a real situation.
    Yes, but how he processes and functions during that will be vastly different depending on training and experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    I teach two hands on the gun till you know the mag is gone, bring the gun to the mag not the mag to the gun,
    This would be counter-productive in a real fight - gun up = head up, mag to gun is better for overall situational awareness.



    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    strong grip surrounding the base of the mag, and the Glock suggested dropping of the slide by gripping the rear of the slide -not pushing the slide lock lever down-for those reasons.
    Duane
    Agreed here - slide release is too fine a motor skill under duress. It COULD work for some, but positive grip on the slide (as Bill describes - love the terminology of "work space," I call it "Core Control" and it applies as well (moreso) in weapon retention) allows a greater margin for error.

    Bill's vid is where the gun should stay for combative functioning - reloads and malfs. The mag well is at the centerline while the head is up. Movement off the currently occupied space is a plus here, maintaining the position of the gun.
    Last edited by Hissho; 11th April 2009 at 05:57.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    163
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    Yes that is the technique for dropping the slide that I was talking about. What I do in our training for malfunctions is this: Instead of having up to 6 differant types of drills I teach two:
    Open chamber malfunction-the cause doesn't matter. Under stress and low light conditions you may not be able to see the "source" of the problem. So it's rip out the mag, rack the slide, and reload. Yes, I realize that a tap rack will clear some of them but since we started teaching just two malfunction drills we have much better results under stress-two to train, two to practice, two to remember, two that work.
    Closed chamber malfunction-tap, rack.
    Kit by not standing upright I meant all the positions you can find crouching/laying down behind cover-where you should be if your gun goes click instead of bang. By bringing the gun to the mag the gun gets loaded faster and if you want you can start firing from that position if the situation allows for it. Elbows are indexed on the rib cage to help stabilize if your are shaking from adrenaline. Eyes on the threat. Gun is about solar plexus level, magazine just below the gun and you are inserting it as you bring it up to your face. If it isn't in by the time it comes into view you have a visual reference and you are on your way.
    I also strongly advocate drawing a second gun, rather than the malfunction drill provided you are faster with your second gun than the malfunction drill-a product of where you carry it and how much you practice.
    A debate.. no, there is more than one way to skin a cat and no matter how you do it the cat ain't happy I teach my people what I teach them with the understanding that I am betting their lives on the training as I know you do. I train about 250 basic recruit shooters a year and from what I see in our training and what their FTO's and Firearms Instructors tell me it seems to work for us.
    Kit I assume you are training in-service and probably training people pay for out of their own pocket?-different experience levels and drives than the folks I get to teach. It's all good-


    Duane

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    45
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    One more clip of a fast guy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAFxg...layer_embedded

    Master level IPSC shooter. Notice the custom magazines and the giant mag-well on the custom gun... but Travis is FAST.

    Be safe

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,161
    Likes (received)
    333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    Yes that is the technique for dropping the slide that I was talking about. What I do in our training for malfunctions is this: Instead of having up to 6 differant types of drills I teach two:
    Open chamber malfunction-the cause doesn't matter. Under stress and low light conditions you may not be able to see the "source" of the problem. So it's rip out the mag, rack the slide, and reload. Yes, I realize that a tap rack will clear some of them but since we started teaching just two malfunction drills we have much better results under stress-two to train, two to practice, two to remember, two that work.
    Closed chamber malfunction-tap, rack.
    But on simply running the gun dry, aren't you adding a step that does not need to be there?




    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    Kit by not standing upright I meant all the positions you can find crouching/laying down behind cover-where you should be if your gun goes click instead of bang.
    Maybe...what if there is no cover? They should be moving, keeping their heads up, and reloading on the move. If there is cover, they should look for it, run to it, THEN drop. This means that actual points of cover need to be on the range.

    I believe that a problem I have commonly seen in force on force, is that people have been conditioned to take a knee to reload with an administrative range assumption of "well, you'd do that behind cover," but WITHOUT actually finding something that actually would be cover.

    I have "executed" a number of officers in force on force who have run their guns dry, taken a knee out in the open (some of these gun fights are within 15' - 20' and they still take a knee), dropped their gun to waist level and their head down as their eyes stayed glued to their gun, and I simply walked up and shot them with no resistance whatsoever.

    As well, behind cover we need to keep the head up to remain aware of bad guy's movement and attempts to flank as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    By bringing the gun to the mag the gun gets loaded faster and if you want you can start firing from that position if the situation allows for it. Elbows are indexed on the rib cage to help stabilize if your are shaking from adrenaline. Eyes on the threat. Gun is about solar plexus level, magazine just below the gun and you are inserting it as you bring it up to your face. If it isn't in by the time it comes into view you have a visual reference and you are on your way.
    Based on this, I don't see this as bringing the gun to the magazine. This is standard, and little different from what the shooter in the video is showing, he just holds a little higher, which will tend to keep the head up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    I also strongly advocate drawing a second gun, rather than the malfunction drill provided you are faster with your second gun than the malfunction drill-a product of where you carry it and how much you practice..
    Yes - a frequently mentioned topic, but where do most cops carry that second gun? Accessed with the off hand? What do they practice doing with the malfunctioned weapon? At what point do they consider it a malfunction worthy of the "New York reload," after they have already attempted to clear it, or do they just go for the second gun on ANY malfunction, that even a tap rack would clear?

    Once that decision is made, anywhere other than a second holster on/inside the gunbelt in open carry, the malfunction clearance for most conditions will most likely be quicker under actual duress. SOME people practice to the point that they may draw a second weapon as quickly, but recruits, and the majority of senior officers, would not be those people.




    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    A debate.. no, there is more than one way to skin a cat and no matter how you do it the cat ain't happy I teach my people what I teach them with the understanding that I am betting their lives on the training as I know you do. I train about 250 basic recruit shooters a year and from what I see in our training and what their FTO's and Firearms Instructors tell me it seems to work for us.
    Kit I assume you are training in-service and probably training people pay for out of their own pocket?-different experience levels and drives than the folks I get to teach. It's all good-

    Duane
    Maybe. I believe skill builds on skill and the "advanced" stuff are the same basics just done better, with greater duress injected into the equation. LE too often defaults to lowest common denominator training. We should be doing just the opposite. Raise the bar and the majority will respond.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,161
    Likes (received)
    333

    Default

    And people think firearms isn't a martial art.....
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    45
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    And people think firearms isn't a martial art.....
    Most Martial Arts are not "Martial"... LE and civilian selfdefense gun craft, now that's as martial as most non-military people get. It aint about self reflection, or becoming a better person, it's about stopping a threat.

    Now if I can just stop bowing before and after I shoot...

    Be safer

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    163
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    Kit,
    By reloading I meant re-inserting the mag in your hand after the rip. I haven't seen our students take a knee-they keep their heads up and move to cover. I don't teach taking a knee to reload-rather to conform to your cover when you have it-if you don't have it you better be moving.
    As far as raising the bar I agree.

    Duane

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    301
    Likes (received)
    23

    Default

    I don't have much to add except that we reload and teach it as the video shows. I've done and trained in a multitude of ways and this seems to fit our needs.
    As I tell the recruits, students, etc., 'It's not the way, juts a way'.
    Tony Urena

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,161
    Likes (received)
    333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Duanew View Post
    Kit,
    By reloading I meant re-inserting the mag in your hand after the rip. I haven't seen our students take a knee-they keep their heads up and move to cover. I don't teach taking a knee to reload-rather to conform to your cover when you have it-if you don't have it you better be moving.
    As far as raising the bar I agree.

    Duane

    Interesting - what do you have them doing with the mag while they rack the slide?

    And good for you guys not teaching the knee. It is standard out here for range quals. Not that it is necessarily bad a) if there is cover or b) at distance with say a long gun.

    CQB range in the open or in small rooms it makes no sense.
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    163
    Likes (received)
    3

    Default

    Rip out the mag with the thumb and forefinger surounding the base, C-clamp with the remaining three fingers.
    I teach my students-When you know one way it's THE way, when you know more than one it's A way.
    Duane Wolfe

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,161
    Likes (received)
    333

    Default

    Certainly, but if you have too many ways, it can come back to bite you, particularly under survival stress.

    Not that I am necessarily disagreeing with your approch to an open breach malf, but, what if the mag was the problem to begin with?

    And what about a simple slide lock - I assume you are just reloading the weapon as normally?
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •