Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22

Thread: Kukishinden Zensho excerpt

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    195
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Kukishinden Zensho excerpt

    Due to the thread over on MAP about "Takamatsu-den legitimacy" I have decided to type up the Nihongo, romaji and include the translation that was put up on MAP from Todd's original translation and a re-translation by Syd. As one will see the translation(s) isn't perfect and if anyone can contribute a better one it would be appreciated by all.

    I ask that this information not be copied & pasted onto other forums, blogs, etc. Just link it to this one, thanks.

    - Syd's translation is the first
    - Todd's original translation is in [brackets] below it

    Kukishinden Zensho, page 311
     この連名簿は、澄水が作成したもの。それ故、右とは別個に、九鬼宗伝之巻(天津蹈鞴秘文武道遍の別称)を直授された高塚理考氏あたりには異論があるかも知れない。けれども、いちおう澄水執筆のままをここに再録し た。
     
    Kono renmei-bo wa, Chōsui ga sakusei shita mono. Sore yue, migi towa bekko ni, Kuki Sōden-no-maki (Amatsu Tatara *Hibun/Hibumi Budō-hen no besshō) wo jikijusareta Takatsuka Michitaka-shi atari ni wa iron ga aru kamo shire-nai. Kere domo, ichiō Chōsui shippitsu no mama wo koko
    ni sairoku shita.

     This register was drawn up by Chōsui. As a consequence, people such as Mr. Takatsuka Michitaka, who received the Kuki Sōden-no-maki (also known as Amatsu Tatara *Hibun/Hibumi Budō-hen) might have a different opinion. However, for the most part it is written here again as Chōsui wrote.

     因みに、澄水が九鬼隆治閣下宛に送った書簡によると、彼は『本体九鬼神流澄水派』を唱えることを申し述べ、隆治にその了解を求めている。

     Chinami ni, Chōsui ga Kuki Takaharu kakka-ate ni okutta shokan ni yoruto, kare wa [Hontai Kukishin-ryū Chōsui-ha] wo tonaeru koto wo mōshi-nobe, Takaharu ni sono ryōkai wo motomete iru.

     Incidentally, according to a letter sent by Chōsui to his Excellency Kuki Takaharu, he stated that he advocated “Hontai Kukishin-ryū Chōsui-ha”, and was asking for Takaharu’s consent.

     [In a letter from Takamatsu Chōsui to general Kuki Takahara, it is written that Takamatsu proposed to formulate a new school and called his branch Hontai Kukishin-ryū Chōsui-ha. He was asking permission to start his own branch for various reasons.]

     これは、講道館柔道が全国的に普及し、九鬼本来の古道的体術では立ちうち出来かねることを認め、拳当・唐手術(今日の空手道)を加味した九鬼神流柔体術を『九体鬼神道流澄水派』として、世に広める意図によるもの であった。(昭和25・5・15は高松書簡)

     Kore wa, Kōdōkan jūdō ga zenkokuteki ni fukyū-shi, Kuki honrai no kodō-teki taijutsu dewa tachi-uchi dekaneru koto wo mitome, kobushi-ate - *tōdejutsu/karatejutsu (kyō no karatedō) wo kami shita Kukishin-ryū jūtaijutsu wo [*Kutaiki/Kuki Shintō-ryū Chōsui-ha] toshite, yo ni hiromeru ito ni yoru mono de atta. (Shōwa-25 5-15 wa Takamatsu shokan)

     It was because of his intention to make it public due to Kōdōkan jūdō spreading nationwide, the recognition that Kuki’s primary old-way taijutsu could not compete, kobushi-ate, *tōdejutsu/karatejutsu (today’s karatedō) added to Kukishin-ryū jūtaijutsu as “*Kutaiki Shintō-ryū Chōsui-ha” that he sought Takaharu’s consent. (Takamatsu’s letter dated Shōwa-25-5-15 [May 15th 1950])

     [One of the main reasons was that Kōdōkan jūdō was prevailing nationwide and Chōsui admitted that it was difficult to compete with them using the old kobudō system, which was that the case case with Kukishin-ryū. Chōsui said that he added karate tōtejutsu (now known as karate) to Kukishin-ryū jūjutsu. Chōsui was thinking of calling it Hontai Kukishin-ryū Chōsui-ha and making it very popular to the public. Shōwa 25 May 15 (Circa 1950)]
    *editors note: can be read both ways.
    *editors note: could be a typo for Kuki.

    Hopefully this will help clear up some things and put a stop to the spin. It appears to not be as bad as some have originally made it out to be. I was recently told that Takamatsu-sensei did learn Kukishin/Kijin Chōsui daken from Ishitani-sensei, as to whether he spiced it up and to what extant is up to debate unless someone can provide more proof that says otherwise.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    195
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Kukishinden website info

    Then we have this from the Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho website regarding Kukishin-ryu jujutsu/taijutsu.

     その内容は、甲冑組討の時代の荒々しい拳法の色合いが色濃く残されており、ひたすら當込2を重視して、小手先の技法にこだわらない、戦場実用の武芸であったが、他の諸流とおなじく、おそらく、江戸初期には、素肌武術への改良・整備がおこなわれたものと推察される3

     Sono naiyō wa, kacchū-kumiuchi no jidai no araarashii kenpō no iroai ga irokoku nokosarete ori, hitasura ate-komi2 wo jūshi shite, kote-saki no gihō ni kodawaranai, senjō jitsuyō no bugei de atta ga, hoka no moro-ryū to onajiku, osoraku, Edo-shoki niwa, suhada bujutsu he no kairyō, seibi ga okonawareta mono to suisatsu sareru3.

     Jūjutsu techniques of Kukishin-ryū were the ones that featured ate-komi, or punching and kicking2 that originated in the time when warriors wore armor on the killing field, and when the name of the game was practicalities. Like other schools of jūjutsu, however, it can be assumed that the jūjutsu techniques of this school had developed from the ones for a fight with armor on into the new style for a fight in an everyday life situation by the early Edo period3.

    Notes:
    2 -  九鬼神流では、通常、他流で當身と称しているのを、當込という。

     Kukishin-ryū dewa, tsūjō, taryū de atemi to shōshite iru no wo, ate-komi to-iu.

     In Kukishin-ryū, the term ate-komi is used instead of atemi unlike other school of jūjutsu.

    3 -  戦国時代以前の技法については、口伝の一部に剛法の伝が残り、往古の姿を髣髴させている。

     Sengoku-jidai izen no gihō ni tsuite wa, kuden no ichibu ni Gōhō-no-den ga nokori, ōko no sugata wo hōfutsu sasete iru.

     In terms of techniques of old days when warriors wore armor, Gōhō-no-den exists, reminding us of how they fought on the battleground.
    taken from http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/catalog1.htm

    So we see according to them that striking already existed in Kukishin ju/jutai/tai.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    10
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Good job! Hopefully this should bring an end to at least some confusion...
    William Ustav
    Bujinkan Kasuga Dojo, Stockholm

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    186
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Note:

    This sentence:

    This register was drawn up by Chōsui. As a consequence, people such as Mr. Takatsuka Michitaka, who received the Kuki Sōden-no-maki (also known as Amatsu Tatara *Hibun/Hibumi Budō-hen) might have a different opinion. However, for the most part it is written here again as Chōsui wrote.
    Should read:

    This register was drawn up by Chōsui. As a consequence, people such as Mr. Takatsuka Michitaka, who received the Kuki Sōden-no-maki directly (also known as Amatsu Tatara *Hibun/Hibumi Budō-hen) might have a different opinion. However, for the most part it is written here again as Chōsui wrote.


    Syd Sked

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    195
    Likes (received)
    0

    Angry Griff Lockfield must be blind

    Is a Mr. Griff Lockfield a member here? If so can someone tell him he's already posted this material to a board without asking permission when told not too and that its to be removed from the forum by mods immediately. His preempted apology is not accepted! If not maybe a ban is needed.....
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    21
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    First, thanks to Todd and Syd for their translation efforts and to Eric for making them available. I have a bunch of photocopied pages from Zensho but never sat down to translate them.


    For context, what is 'this register... drawn up by Chosui' that is being referred to?
    Adam McColl


    "On weekends, to let off steam, I participate in full-contact origami."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    195
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by macool View Post
    First, thanks to Todd and Syd for their translation efforts and to Eric for making them available. I have a bunch of photocopied pages from Zensho but never sat down to translate them.

    For context, what is 'this register... drawn up by Chosui' that is being referred to?
    Hi Adam, no problem on throwing this up.

    renmei “joint signature”
    -bo “record book”
    sakusei “drawing up; making; producing; creating; preparing; writing”

    Is what I have for that portion, how it flows and fully translates is out of my amateur Nihongo hands.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    186
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    There is a list of names prior to that excerpt. It is a list of notable people in the lineage of Fujiwara Uona Ryu Taijutsu (藤原魚名流体術). The last two names on that list are Ishitani Matsutaro Takakage and Takamatsu Toshitsugu Minamoto no Chosui.

    Syd Sked

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    21
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    There is a list of names prior to that excerpt. It is a list of notable people in the lineage of Fujiwara Uona Ryu Taijutsu (藤原魚名流体術). The last two names on that list are Ishitani Matsutaro Takakage and Takamatsu Toshitsugu Minamoto no Chosui.
    Thanks again Syd.
    Adam McColl


    "On weekends, to let off steam, I participate in full-contact origami."

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    99
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Syd,

    Can you elaborate on that? Does it suggest Takamatsu was Soke of this ryu-ha? What does it have to do with Kuki ?

    Regards / Skuggvarg
    Richard Maier
    Bujinkan Kasuga Dojo
    Kasuga Dojo Teaser clip

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Groningen (NL)
    Posts
    621
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Is there any chance that someone could give some perspective to what is being said in this thread?

    I find the issue of the Takamatsu-den legitimacy quite interesting as a subject, but it's been quite a while since I've actually read anything related to it.
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    195
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by niten ninja View Post
    Is there any chance that someone could give some perspective to what is being said in this thread?
    Some have implied/suggested that Takamatsu-sensei made up Kijin Chosui-ryu/Kukishin-ryu dakentaijutsu from karate, so I posted the original Nihongo from page 311 of the Kukishinden Zensho book with romaji and 2 English translations to show that what it says isn't really what some have ran a-muck with as fact.

    It says he added striking and Chinese-hand and its the opinion of some that he did this.

    As to whether or not that is true is still up for debate and to what extant if he did and what his source was.

    Does the todejutsu = chuan-fa he might have learned in China, or Okinawan tode or some other Japanese striking system like that of Shinden Koto-ryu todejutsu/karatejutsu?

    Or does it mean he improved/expanded on it based on his experience with these other styles while in China or did he expanded on it based on his knowledge/headmastership of Koto-ryu?

    I think its safe to say we simply just don't know unless more evidence comes forth to suggest otherwise.
    Last edited by Shinobi; 26th April 2009 at 23:46.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Groningen (NL)
    Posts
    621
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Wow, I can see your point... seems best to leave it with the tengu... mythology.
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Tokyo, Japan
    Posts
    186
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by skuggvarg View Post
    Syd,

    Can you elaborate on that? Does it suggest Takamatsu was Soke of this ryu-ha? What does it have to do with Kuki ?

    Regards / Skuggvarg
    The start of that section is titled "Amatsu Tatara Hibun no Hen". It lists 7 lineages associated with the Amatsu Tatara but only goes into depth for 3 of them. Those which are associated with Kukishin Ryu; Fudo Ryu Taijutsu, Gen Ryu Dakentaijutsu, and Fujiwara Uona Ryu Taijutsu.

    The book mentions Kuki Yagoro Sumitaka (the 8th generation of the Kuki family) in the lineage, which can be how it relates to Kukishin Ryu. Takamatsu is, apparently, the last name on the lineage list so perhaps it is safe to assume that he was the Soke of this ryuha (if they used that term).

    It's interesting to note that the section that is causing the big stir right now is only a sidenote in the Zensho pertaining to Takamatsu and the Amatsu Tatara Hibun no Hen.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    99
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Thanks a lot for the reply.

    Is this "Fudo Ryu Taijutsu" connected to the Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu from Toda sensei? What about "Gen Ryu Dakentaijutsu, and Fujiwara Uona Ryu Taijutsu" ?

    Regards / Skuggvarg
    Richard Maier
    Bujinkan Kasuga Dojo
    Kasuga Dojo Teaser clip

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •