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Thread: Juho principles

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    Default Juho principles

    In a discussion between a few senior kenshi recently, many agreed that Shorinji Kempo juho was more complex to learn that similar 'soft' techniques in other arts. My view was that it was only so because of the way it is taught and that in fact shorinji kempo juho is based on only a few commonsense principles, which are relatively easy to learn. In fact, there are more similarities than differences between techniques.

    What to you see as the basic principles of juho and how do you convey these principles to minerai?
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    [...] many agreed that Shorinji Kempo juho was more complex to learn that similar 'soft' techniques in other arts.
    Yes. I'm sure... :S
    Alejandro Villanueva.


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    If principles of Shorinji Kempo are hard there is big possibility that I have no clue about them. But I have not seen many different in the principles compared to other arts. Difference is in the ways of practice and the ways to use those principles. I think these common principles are the same than in basic mechanics with additionally some reflexology, anatomy and psychology.

    I don't think the principles itself are hard to teach. Many times it just does not seem to make any difference to explain the principles behind the techniques. The problem is that ability to use those principles comes only after lots of practice so just knowing them does not help.
    Panu Suominen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flintstone View Post
    Yes. I'm sure... :S
    Just to clarify Alejandro, I do not think that SK techniques are any more complex that that of other styles, it's just that some SK instructors are obsessed with giving too much detail when teaching beginners, thus making techniques seem much more complex than they really are. In my view, SK techniques can be distilled down to a few basic principles. If these are taught, the technique will work in 75 -80% of cases, the rest of the details is merely the icing on the cake that makes it work against the remaining 20-25% of people. This icing on the cake can be learnt later once the kenshi are confident with the basic principles.

    BTW, our discussion group included a Japanese 3rd dan Aikido (SK beginner) and a 2nd dan Hapkido (2nd dan SK) and a green belt BJJ (3rd dan SK)

    Cheers,
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    In a discussion between a few senior kenshi recently, many agreed that Shorinji Kempo juho was more complex to learn that similar 'soft' techniques in other arts. My view was that it was only so because of the way it is taught and that in fact shorinji kempo juho is based on only a few commonsense principles, which are relatively easy to learn. In fact, there are more similarities than differences between techniques.

    What to you see as the basic principles of juho and how do you convey these principles to minerai?
    Hi ROb

    Another good thread... you are on a roll.

    Actually, I agree with
    in fact shorinji kempo juho is based on only a few commonsense principles, which are relatively easy to learn
    but not with

    Shorinji Kempo juho was more complex to learn that similar 'soft' techniques in other arts [...] because of the way it is taught
    My learning experience with SK juho has been very much the opposite. If anything, I hear more about how simple it is. One thing my sensei emphasizes with me is how much alike the "new" juho is to the "old" (what I have studied) juho. Something like, look it is nothing new, it is the same as this but the angle is different, etc...
    Peter

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    Gassho!

    I agree that many instructors included myself sometimes give too much detail when teaching beginners.

    But their are more components that makes Shorinjikempo juho more difficult to learn than other MA.

    1. Shorinjikempo grading are slow.
    If you follow the curriculum it takes at least a couple of years to learn the basic pinciples of Shorinjikempo. In other MA you can becom swedish champion in the same amount if time.

    2. In Shorinjikempo you learn techniques not principles.
    In many MA you learn principles and can adopt them very fast according to your own personal preferences. Learning techniques rather than principles slows down progress and makes it more difficult to lean juho in Shorinjikempo than other MA.

    Johan Frendin

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan_frendin View Post

    2. In Shorinjikempo you learn techniques not principles.
    In many MA you learn principles and can adopt them very fast according to your own personal preferences. Learning techniques rather than principles slows down progress and makes it more difficult to lean juho in Shorinjikempo than other MA.

    Johan Frendin
    My point exactly. The reason i started this thread is because my impression, during my last visit to Hombu was that this was changing and there was more emphasis on teaching principles and focusing on commonalities between techniques. This helped me tremendously and consequently my juho has improved out of sight.

    Has any one else noticed this change in emphasis, or is it just my imagination?
    Cheers, Rob
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Gassho!

    1. First you can train on the basis of techniques – Uchi uke zuki, uchi uke geri, ryusui geri etc.

    1. Second you can train on the basis of technique group – Nio ken, sango ken, ryuo ken etc.

    1. Third you can train on the basis of principles - ?


    ……..but what are the principles of Shorinjikempo juho?

    Johan Frendin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    BTW, our discussion group included a Japanese 3rd dan Aikido (SK beginner) and a 2nd dan Hapkido (2nd dan SK) and a green belt BJJ (3rd dan SK)
    I dont mean to hijack, But GREEN belt BJJ? a 3rd dan SK? A green belt is only used for ages 13 to 15 year old? I didn't think SK would be giving Sandan grades to juniors?
    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

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    Quote Originally Posted by bu-kusa View Post
    GREEN belt BJJ? a 3rd dan SK? A green belt is only used for ages 13 to 15 year old? I didn't think SK would be giving Sandan grades to juniors?
    He is 55yo, certainly not a junior. He's done BJJ for approximately 3-4 years. Firstly, it may be that belt colours vary from club to club (as it does for kyu kenshi from one Federation to anotherin SK). Secondly, i may have got the colour wrong. The underlyng message remains the same, he is at a midlevel Kyu (or whatever BJJ practitiones call it) level in BJJ.
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    He is 55yo, certainly not a junior. He's done BJJ for approximately 3-4 years. Firstly, it may be that belt colours vary from club to club (as it does for kyu kenshi from one Federation to anotherin SK). Secondly, i may have got the colour wrong. The underlyng message remains the same, he is at a midlevel Kyu (or whatever BJJ practitiones call it) level in BJJ.
    Thanks for clearing that up! Sorrry to derail the conversation.
    Paul Greaves
    ''Skill is aquired via sweat equity''

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    Quote Originally Posted by bu-kusa View Post
    Thanks for clearing that up! Sorrry to derail the conversation.
    A little transgression:

    I asked him today, in fact he's a blue belt. Funnily, I asked him if there is a green belt in his style of BJJ. He doesn't know as he is completely (black and white) colour blind - he has been told his belt is blue. He could not tell me the colours to black.

    Interestingly however, he told me there is no grading. Belts are given when the instructor thinks you're ready.

    Back on topic now
    Robert Gassin
    Melbourne ShorinjiKempo Branch
    Australia

    "Never fight an idiot. He'll bring you down to his level and then beat you with experience"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Gassin View Post
    What to you see as the basic principles of juho and how do you convey these principles to minerai?
    Another good question, addressing the cutting edge issues of SK and deserving a considered response.

    Having trained with people having a lot of physical strength who are very difficult to do juho on, my own opinion would be that juho has to be backed by goho/atemi. How to teach this is difficult; if I can give an example:

    gyaku gote can be hard to execute on some-one who has a strong grip. One approach would be to use atemi, e.g. kinteki geri or a head butt (don't know the technical term), before applying the technique. Can be difficult to practise in the dojo.

    Technically, the correct atemi is mei-uchi, but I'm not convinced that this is always effective in reality.

    We are taught that juho relies on pain and balance. Applying pain depends on the mental/physical condition of the opponent. Taking the balance depends on physical dynamics. So juho techniques have to be practiced dynamically, with the attacker applied a determined attack; not just grabbing and holding statically.

    So generally, I think that you are right; many SK instructors talk too much.

    But, the logic talk is a bit too dominant. More fundamental techniques, repeated over and over within free play, doing it so that people can really use the techniques, that's what I like.

    http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/.../aosakass.html


    And, of course, you have to want to put your opponent on the floor. Since we are nice people, this can be a difficult mindset to attain, but fundamental for anyone practising budo.
    Indar Picton-Howell
    印打
    Abujavol

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    Gassho!

    In my previous post I stated a question what are the principles of Shorinjikempo? During my 25 years in Shorinjikempo I have stumbled on quite a few from different instructors. Sometimes I have wondered what the "core" of principles of Shorinjikempo really is? This is because they are quite a few!
    Let me try to explain.

    Firstly
    In general there are really three primary types of taking a human being to the ground in all martial arts:
    • throws or takedown that controls an opponents legs while moving his upper torso

    • throws or takedown that controls an opponent’s torso while moving his legs

    • throws or takedown when you sacrifice your own balance in order to throw or take the opponent to the ground.


    As I understand it the first one is the principle Shorinjikempo uses in 98 % of its juho techniques.

    This is great! Only one principle to follow!

    Secondly
    Many instructors use the method of kuzushi – otoshi – hazushi

    Attachment 10543

    Thirdly
    Many instructors explain that kuzushi could or should be done in 6 directions.

    Fourthly
    In addition to the above stated principles there are principles of bending an arm or the fingers:

    1. Gyaku gote principle
    2. Okuri gote principle
    3. Kiri gote principle
    4. Johaku dori principle
    5. Kannuki principle
    6. Kiri keashi gote principle
    7. Konoha principle
    8. etc.


    Fifthly
    There are further more principles explained by Shorinjikempo instructors sometimes at training camps:

    • Principles of the lever (teko)
    • Principle of the wheel (karuma)
    • Principle of momentum (hazumi)
    • Principle of meridians (keimyaku hiko)


    There are alot of principles to learn!!!!!!

    I personally have an idea to teach kyu kenshi that is eager to learn more that the curriculum says. For example in goho wasa – shita uke geri (san kyu) and shita uke zuki (san dan) or tsukiten ichi (san kyu) and tsukiten san, keriten san, jun geri chi san. The are all the same principle and movement.

    For example in juho wasa – I teach juji nuki and juji gote all forms like katate, ryote and morote to nikyu kenshi. To ikkyu student I teach kata muna otoshi and ryo muna otoshi. They are all the same principle and movement.

    Johan Frendin

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    Default Some little mistakes noted in a few replies above...

    I have noted a couple of incorrect spellings peppered in the last few answers to this general post. As japanese is the language that allows us all to understand each other across borders when training, I thought I'd point these out

    A beginner is a minarai, not minerai.
    The wheel is kuruma, not karuma.

    Kesshu.
    Blue Popovic
    Mayfair Shibu- London
    British Shorinji kempo Federation

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