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Thread: Misconceptions of Karate

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    Default Misconceptions of Karate

    There are those who beleive that Karate did not have or train people ground techniques. In other words, these people have the mindset that Karate is strictly a stand-up art. Thus, not having a complete worth in real defense. There are some MMA (I loathe this term) followers whom think it is ineffective in or out of the ring. (I would almost tend to make a statement, that any fight, in or out the ring is Karate given the semantics of the term-definition.)

    Could it be that arts like Shotokan (for example-not just picking on), per its current course, give a false impression?
    Richard Scardina

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    Some MMA greats like Lyoto Machida and Georges St. Pierre are Karateka. Don't sweat it.
    John Connolly

    Yamamoto Ha Fluffy Aiki Bunny Ryu

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Connolly View Post
    Some MMA greats like Lyoto Machida and Georges St. Pierre are Karateka. Don't sweat it.
    Whom added ground game to their training. Machida is also a BJJ black belt.
    Karate has and had ground defense. I beg to differ it had grappling ala BJJ/GJJ or Judo newaza.
    Karate having grappling came out post UFC and by Americans/Europeans.
    Funny how I never been told, taught, shown by the Okinawan's who I've been training with since the early 80's.

    What karate forgot (I'm generalizing here) was to take a grappler seriously or wok the defenses. What the UFC and MMA did was open people's eyes to their holes in their training/defenses.
    Tony Urena

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    As I am sure I've previously pointed out in other posts, I am no expert in anything- (much to my wife's dismay ) however... even I have seen techniques from the Bunkai of kata as trained in Okinawa that deal with grounded/ downed opponents - even opponents that are attempting to upend the Karateka- in what I would call a most brutal way.
    Sure, this type of treatment (eye gouge/ stomp/ neck crank-break/ tracheal compression) may not be easily defensible in a modern court- but this makes my point that the people who created and (in some cases) are practicing these Kata certainly did -IMHO- have serious and severe solutions in mind when it cam to dealing with the potential newaza threat.
    I guess I am opening the discussion that just because you may not be laying down or intending to when/ if you practice this type of Bunkai- doesn't mean that these techniques you'd deploy against a lying opponent- or one who is intending to- are impractical for self defence.

    may be waffling now...time for dinner.
    -Michael Fitzgerald.

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    may be waffling now...time for dinner.


    What did you have for dinner? Waffles?
    Richard Scardina

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    Wink

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif
    nah- not waffles- pasta- but needed some energy- was in danger of straying too far from the point!!!
    -Michael Fitzgerald.

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    Second video down, Lyoto Machida. "Karate is my Life."

    http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/new...-video-978291/

    Showing his chops vs. Satoshi Iishi as well.

    It is ridiculous to think that anyone can take a kata bunkai and apply it grappling against an equal opponent without extensive, progressive, antagonistic training. That means the grappling stuff won't work against a legitimate threat unless you ...grapple.

    Then again, jujutsu doesn't work in grappling unless you actually grapple, so why would karate be any different?

    Tony is spot on - Machida is a BJJ black belt who does exactly what ANY quality fighter should do - he applies his karate where it is applicable, his BJJ where that is applicable, and he integrates the skill sets into a seamless continuum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Second video down, Lyoto Machida. "Karate is my Life."

    http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/new...-video-978291/

    Showing his chops vs. Satoshi Iishi as well.

    It is ridiculous to think that anyone can take a kata bunkai and apply it grappling against an equal opponent without extensive, progressive, antagonistic training. That means the grappling stuff won't work against a legitimate threat unless you ...grapple.

    Then again, jujutsu doesn't work in grappling unless you actually grapple, so why would karate be any different?

    Tony is spot on - Machida is a BJJ black belt who does exactly what ANY quality fighter should do - he applies his karate where it is applicable, his BJJ where that is applicable, and he integrates the skill sets into a seamless continuum.
    I agree and [maybe] partially disagree- depending on if I read your response correctly.
    I don't think it's ridiculous to apply (dare I say it!!) "anti" grappling techniques from Kata- techniques that are designed to dispatch an opponent that is trying to grapple with you- or whatnot- but to take bunkai NOT intended for this purpose, and try to do something you have no training in [like grapple like a pro] - then yes, that is ridiculous.
    -Michael Fitzgerald.

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    I think you followed my response mostly - but I would clarify that notwithstanding an art's "anti-grappling" bunkai, if they are not practiced in actual grappling (that is, against a wrestler, BJJ-er, or submission grappler actually trying to dominate you with grappling), then even in attempting to apply said bunkai, you are "trying to do something you have no training in."

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    Thumbs up

    ok- fair call.
    I guess where my resistance lies is in an [unintentionally] personally researched [albeit unfortunate and regrettable] belief that your opponent cannot impose their will upon you simply by virtue of the techniques they employ. That is to say grappling wont beat striking- nor will striking beat grappling- but rather a man will beat another (OMG did I rally just do the striking Vs grappling thing!!!??)

    anyhow, yes no-one should be using techniques they are not fully conversant with in a serious [even life and death] situation.

    I will quit by saying though, that just as you say

    ... "even in attempting to apply said bunkai, you are "trying to do something you have no training in."

    so too would one who is a grappler be exercising futility in a match with one who is a well versed/ specialised striker...

    where does that leave us ? HOPEFULLY in a state of mutual respect and agreement that hypotheticals frequently turn out the same.

    Good day and Good wishes Sir,
    -Michael Fitzgerald.

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    Basically - the futility is not in the skill sets, but rather in the training medium.

    Any grappler with a background in competitive grappling has a distinct advantage against a striker who has little or no meaningful actual fighting experience with said striking (boxing, kickboxing, full contact karate, etc.)

    Likewise, the non-grappling, albeit highly skilled jujutsuka will be at a distinct disadvantage against the skilled full contact striker of any discipline.

    The problem is not in being grapplers or strikers, but in actually knowing how to fight versus only thinking you do.

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    Default It depends

    Are we speaking strictly “sports” application of Karate and BJJ and MMA?

    In this case I think Kit is spot on. But the rules hobble any system in a way, because rules limit both people in the fight.

    Are we are talking street application of Karate and BJJ and MMA?

    Then any Karate-ka or BJJ Player or MMA player can introduce techniques and tools that will level the playing field.

    My stand up game is much better than my ground game. I am going to loose in the “ring” against pretty much anyone who has done any serious study of grappling. But on the street, if I can articulate the lawful reasons why, and I am in a situation where I fear for my safety and or my life, I am going to employee a blade, a stick, a rock, or whatever it takes (including a firearm) to be the one who stands back up in the end.

    Rickster didn’t frame his post to indicate whether we are talking about limited offense/defense or unlimited offense/defense. In a unlimited offense/defense encounter there are no rules that say the Karate-ka, if taken to the ground, couldn’t tear off an ear, gouge out an eyeball, crush the testicles, strike the base of the skull and the spine, bite, or do whatever comes to mind or grab any rock or broken bottle within reach. But then again, the same applies to the grappler as well.

    Kabar makes a nifty little knife that you can tie into the laces of your shoes, and makes an effective little equalizer when you are on the ground getting the you know what stomped out of you and you fear that you are going to get an arm broken or you are about to lose your life. Don’t forget your car keys, a person’s ear socket is just like putting your keys in the ignition to start your car. Don’t forget to turn back and forth vigorously.

    I hope I didn’t get off on a tangent here, but without clarifying the situation that the encounter is taking place in- we are talking about a lot of hypothetical outcomes. The sitation is going to define what you can and can not do! Study the laws in your area on self defense and use of force. Study the rules before you get into the ring.

    If we are talking about a 150 pound grappler against a 250 pound karate-ka, I know where I am going to put my money! Generally speaking, what each person brings to the game in terms of “individuals” is going to decide the outcome to greater degree than style vs. style.

    Your mind is your greatest weapon!

    Be safe

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    It is just another set of rules - the dynamics of live combat, versus pantomime combat, are the same.

    There is nothing preventing the man who is able to so easily defeat you in the ring because of his serious study of grappling from using the very same tools and tactics against you - as a force multiplier to his already superior grappling skills.

    Further still, due to his ability to control position as well as your ability to use your hands, it doesn't take much to prevent you from drawing those weapons in the first place, or to put you in such a position that drawing them exposes the weapon to his takeaway - again from a superior position.

    Be careful that the weapon you introduce isn't the one he uses against you.

    Be wary of thinking of such things as equalizers. As well with the gouges, rips, tears, whatever that too many people place far too much stock in vis-a-vis "ctual combat." You shouldn't place your faith in blades or bullets, because it is common that even multiple cuts or stabs or gunshot wounds don't stop an aggressor.

    They are force multipliers for an existing skill set. Certainly, you don't need to know enough grappling to tap a BJJ black belt on the mat, or go toe to toe with a Golden Gloves boxer, but you do need to know enough to allow you to protect yourself from being placed in a bad position or getting knocked out, and to access those tools or effectively use your foul tactics in order to escape from a skilled fighter.

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    A big thank-you to Kit and Michael, who have consolidated the major points clearly and concisely, and stopped the birth of yet another "Karate vs. BJJ" discussion.
    Andrew Smallacombe

    Aikido Kenshinkai

    JKA Tokorozawa

    Now trotting over a bridge near you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew S View Post
    A big thank-you to Kit and Michael, who have consolidated the major points clearly and concisely, and stopped the birth of yet another "Karate vs. BJJ" discussion.
    Actually, I don't think that's where this was going. It was more along the lines of karate has grappling. It all depends on how you define grappling. Karate also has throws but it's not judo. It has joint locks but it's not jujutsu. It has their version of Chin-na (tuite) but it's not kung-fu. It just doesn't have grappling the way most people define it.
    .
    Tony Urena

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