Which style is this based on?

[Stefffen]

They remind me of movie choreographer for fightning scenes. It is not what I would look for in a dojo, so automaticaly I would not recomend it to others. But thats me.

[BJohnson]

I think these guys are a class act and I would recommend their dojo to anyone.

*boogles*

How can you recommend a dojo without knowing the people who teach there?

And to "anyone" (everyone)?

I guess that just goes to show the difference in motivations. For me, it's about the community—crossing weapons with the right people.

-Beth

[Patrick McCarthy]

*boogles*

How can you recommend a dojo without knowing the people who teach there?

And to "anyone" (everyone)?

I guess that just goes to show the difference in motivations. For me, it's about the community—crossing weapons with the right people.

-Beth

Yes, perhaps I should listen to your wisdom - how stupid of me, after all, they could be criminals masquerading as Zen-based martial artists – or even worse, rehearsing for a Samurai movie!

Let’s agree to disagree. In fact, I insist upon it.

[DDATFUS]

Yes, perhaps I should listen to your wisdom - how stupid of me, after all, they could be criminals masquerading as Zen-based martial artists – or even worse, rehearsing for a Samurai movie!

You are making light of a rather serious issue. Everyone who has spent any time at all in the martial arts world has encountered or at least heard of instructors who abused students physically or emotionally. I have seen groups that appeared "normal" from their website where the instructor routinely struck students-- adult students and teenagers-- across the face when they "failed to show proper respect."

There are many, many groups where instructors use their students as punching bags during sparring or set themselves up as a little cult leader in the dojo. There are many, many cases where an adult instructor has engaged in extremely unhealthy and unethical sexual relationships with his students, even cases where instructors have molested underage students. I'm not saying that this group is anything like that, but I know almost nothing about them and nothing about the attitude and practices at their dojo.

If you would recommend them based on what you currently know, that's your business. But I think that Beth raised a legitimate point when she questioned your readiness to recommend them and I am surprised to see someone with your experience laughing off something with such serious implications. There are some extremely bad groups out there and many people have been hurt because they don't realize that choosing a dojo is a decision that can have some serious implications. Making dismissive jokes about the possibility that these guys are "criminals masquerading as Zen-based martial artists" seems to trivialize this.

[Kendoguy9]

So I watched the jujutsu video and I have to say the sword looks like a mix of Katori, Toyama and some good old fashioned Jedi for good measure (they do some of the 360 spins Obi-wan uses in their shinai geiko... not very "samurai"). Their jujutsu looked like a solid but typical "American jujutsu" mix of some judo, aikido, JKD and maybe some Gracie stuff mixed in for good measure. Are they bad guys and rapists? I doubt it (I could be wrong) but their art isn't something I'd want to study. But to each his own. They do seem to have good marketing and some flashy videos.

Best of luck to them and their students.

[DDATFUS]

Are they bad guys and rapists? I doubt it (I could be wrong)

Just to be really clear about something, I didn't intend to imply that these folks are bad guys or rapists. I would be extremely surprised to hear that they were.

Nor do I really have a problem with someone who wants to recommend this group-- what groups you recommend and why is your own business.

What prompted me to make my most recent post was that someone seemed to be laughing at the idea that "they could be criminals masquerading as Zen-based martial artists," as if the thought that a dojo turning out to be a rather unsavory and unhealthy group were an outlandish thought. I've seen criminals-- fraudsters and even sexual predators-- hiding themselves behind the facade of Zen-based martial arts before. It's a sickening thing.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Wow!

I hardly know what to say ..

Having been a professional instructor all my life I am more than familiar with what kind of sick predators are out there. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind condoning such sick behavior - that said, such predators exists everywhere and in every industry. TTBOMK, there are [at least here in Australia] some industry-related criteria, set forth by some governments, to "help" prevent such people from working with children/people, etc. I'm not sure how successful the "Blue Card" [http://www.ccypcg.qld.gov.au/employment/whats-new.html] program actually is, but we've certainly welcomed it here in Oz.

Back to the issue at hand... "I" like what these folks are doing and "I" would recommend them to anyone. "I" have no reason to believe that their group are sexual predators, engaged in any form of criminal activity or misrepresenting themselves. Moreover, and unless I am mistaken about American culture, these folks have the right to free expression, and to embrace any practices they see fit [providing they're not breaking any laws]. Just because they don't fit "your" idea of what this art should be [or how it should be advertised] doesn't mean everyone else shares "your" opinion. By the looks of things, I'd say that they have a very successful school, teach technique that is just as functional as [possibly even more than] any Koryu tradition that I've ever seen, and are imparting strong traditional values.

Unless someone here or elsewhere is able to offer any actual "PROOF" that these folks are anything other than what they're advertising [and competently demonstrating] "I'll" stick to "my" opinion and wish you well.

[DDATFUS]

Moreover, and unless I am mistaken about American culture, these folks have the right to free expression, and to embrace any practices they see fit [providing they're not breaking any laws].

They certainly do, and I have no interest in stopping them from enjoying any of those rights. I might disagree with them, but I disagree with a lot of people. Most of them don't even notice it.

Just because they don't fit "your" idea of what this art should be [or how it should be advertised] doesn't mean everyone else shares "your" opinion. By the looks of things, I'd say that they have a very successful school, teach technique that is just as functional as [possibly even more than] any Koryu tradition that I've ever seen, and are imparting strong traditional values.

I think that we might be judging them by slightly different criteria, but that's just a difference of opinion. If you like what they are doing and if you want to recommend them, that's your business. If other people like what they are doing and want to join them, more power to them. Koryu are not proselytizing religions and I'm not really out to make converts.

that said, such predators exists everywhere and in every industry. TTBOMK, there are [at least here in Australia] some industry-related criteria, set forth by some governments, to "help" prevent such people from working with children/people, etc. I'm not sure how successful the "Blue Card" [http://www.ccypcg.qld.gov.au/employment/whats-new.html] program actually is, but we've certainly welcomed it here in Oz.

I'm very glad to hear that such a program exists and appreciate you providing the link. I'll probably do some more research on that when I get the time.

As I said before, I'm not really interested in changing your opinion of this group or of keeping you from expressing it-- if you like what they do then that's your affair. Maybe I'd like what they did more myself if I knew more about them. I was just a bit dismayed at your choice of words earlier. As I said, I've seen "criminals masquerading as Zen-based martial artists" and think of that as a very real concern rather than a possibility to be laughed off.

Sorry if I came off a bit strong-- it's an issue that hits a bit close to home for me.

[Patrick McCarthy]

Understood and appreciated.

[BJohnson]

Just to be really clear about something, I didn't intend to imply that these folks are bad guys or rapists. I would be extremely surprised to hear that they were.
<snip>
I've seen criminals-- fraudsters and even sexual predators-- hiding themselves behind the facade of Zen-based martial arts before.

Mr. Sims,

Agreed.

Wow, I wasn't even thinking of anything that extreme. I was just thinking of student/teacher mismatch. I had a teacher once whom I wouldn't recommend to a stuffed hamster.

I just can't fathom, personally, recommending a dojo or teacher without knowing them at all. That doesn't pass judgment on them, it's just an expression of my personal feelings on training.

Cheers,

-Beth

[gendzwil]

I respect tradition but that doesn't stop it from getting in the way of progress.

How do you "progress" classical swordsmanship?

[Bill Sampson]

How do you "progress" classical swordsmanship?

Exactly!

Koryu is about preservation of a tradition and culture! And "Koryu" is always date sensitive; so without a lineage starting back before the Meiji Restoration, it isn't Koryu, it's Gendai. It has a lot less to do with looking competent and more to do with "tradition". In my oppinion, ANYONE who teaches Koryu without permission is disrepecting the tradition and the culture that Koryu exists in. Steal and then teach whatever you want, or just make something up based on what you thought it was like several hundred years ago in Japan, but don't call it "classical" or "Koryu". Especially just to up the tuition you are going to charge by cashing in on what you think is going to make your stuff more attractive and valuable. It's either economics or ego that drives this sort of thing. ("You" being a general term here, I am not writing about any specific person.)

I would have this issue with anyone teaching a "classical" system, or claiming thier system is clasical, without premission to do so. I wouldn't want to train under someone who (in my oppinion) thinks more of themselves than the Ryu-ha no matter wonderful thier technique is. Koryu is not about the individual, it's about the group, the Ryu.

You can create something and teach it using a "Koryu" model, and that is fine, but it doesn't make it "Koryu" without a linage and a history. Man up, be honest about what it is, and let what you are teaching demonstrate if it has a value or not based on what it really is, don't try to make it something it is not.

[futabachan]

[W]ithout a lineage starting back before the Meiji Restoration, it isn't Koryu, it's Gendai.

Just to be pedantic, even Toyama-ryu and Nakamura-ryu?

[yoj]

Yup, it was formed after feudal times, therefore, its a gendai art. It's not a big deal, it's still what it is.

[DDATFUS]

Just to be pedantic, even Toyama-ryu and Nakamura-ryu?

I don't think I've ever heard a Toyama Ryu exponent or a Nakamura Ryu exponent claim that their art was koryu. I've heard them described as arts with a "koryu feel," arts with "deep koryu roots," arts taught in a "koryu-like manner," and several other variations on this theme, but they seem to be comfortably on this side of the chronological divide between koryu and gendai.