Muso Shinden Ryu: any densho?

[Benkei the Monk]

Dear fellows,

My question could sound strange, but I'd like to know if in 1920s and 1930s anyone reaching the shoden or chuden level also gain a densho. Can somebody help me?

[Eric Spinelli]

You should contact Jeff Karinja (E-Budo nickname: Bushikan). He has talked about densho in the past, though I do not know if these are modern copies or merely historical remnants.

[bushikan]

Dear fellows,

My question could sound strange, but I'd like to know if in 1920s and 1930s anyone reaching the shoden or chuden level also gain a densho. Can somebody help me?

Yes and No. In the days before MSR was created when it was still called Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu such ranks did not really exist. At the time the curriculim of the school was structured differently. For example Omori Ryu was taught first, however it was a seperate school all together. So one could actually attain the Rank of Menkyo Kaiden in Omori Ryu within a few years of training. After that point one would begin learning Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu and were thus (when the time was right) would earn densho based on your proficiency. Like you listed before it starts with Shoden, Chuden, the progressing to Okuden (mokuroku), Menkyo, Menkyo Kaiden. At the time MSER was comprised of Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, Eishin's reformed version of Shigenobu Ryu (he reformed many of Hayashizaki's original techniques), Itabashi Ryu, and Natsubara Ryu (also Hosokawa Sensei taught a miriad of different styles to his students). So with all of that material students were essentially awarded a library of densho, books, and Kirigami Menkyo (folded pieces of paper with varrious phrases or words of advice that help the student acchive a deeper understanding of the art). So when reaching a high enough level in Hasegawa Eishin Ryu you would get the densho and many books that came with that style. When you reached a respectable level of skill in Shigenobu Ryu you recieved the densho and books from that tradition, plus there were a few Mokuroku that tied Hasegawa Eishin Ryu and Shigenobu Ryu together (at least on paper). There was also the infamous Shinden Ryu Books (a rarity among most Menkyo Kaiden recipients). So it is hard to tell exactly when one recieved all of these works.

After Hakudo Sensei reformed Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu into MSR he changed the ranking structure slightly. Densho were grouped together to be awarded at certain levels. So if you were in the Yushinkan (Hakudo Sensei's dojo) you earned densho based on the the old system, as the use of I-dan ranks does not exist in the Yushinkan. In the Yushinkan students were taught personally by Hakudo Sensei. This personal level of instruction allowed Hakudo Sensei to develop relationships with his students. And thus he was aware of their ability and progression. If you were part of the Yushinkai Iaido Renmei, however you were a member of an orginization with around 10,000 students. It was nearly impossible for you to recieve private instruction unless you were skilled enough to stand out from everyone else. So inorder to ensure that people would get their just dues the I-dan system was implimented and the densho structure was reformed to 3 catalouges: Mokuroku, Menkyo, Menkyo Kaiden.

Very few people in the Yushinkai Iaido Renmei recieved densho above Mokuroku. And most of Hakudo Sensei's Menkyo Kaiden(s) came from the Yushinkan. And after Hakudo Sensei's, Zendo Sensei's (his son), and Hashimoto Toyo (Hakudo Sensei's top Shihan in the Yushinkan) death, teachers of certification (whether it be Menkyo Kaiden or someone holding a I-Dan rank) were incharge of creating and maintaining their orginizations as they saw fit.

One big movement was created former students of the the Yushinkai Iaido Renmei. Essentially what they sough to do was to dismantle MSR. The end result is a version of MSR that is taught in many kendo and dojo's across the world, where they practice only the iai of MSR and earn dan ranks through the ZNKR or equivilent orginization. They often do not teach any kumitachi above Tachi Uchi no Kurai (if they even teach kumitachi at all) and no densho is passed down to students.

Another movement is a more traditional one. Menkyo Kaiden(s) like Danzaki Tomoaki preserved all of the kumitachi and issued densho to students who proved themselves worthy. He did this through his own dojo and later after becoming the head of the ZNIR used the I-dan ranking system as a way to better judge what students were worthy of densho. I believe after earning 5th dan in the early ZNIR one was eledgeable to earn Menkyo. That did not mean that you knew everything there was to know about MSR, however as they have not yet recieved Kaiden (even then there are kata depending on your lineage that might remain like Jigoku-zo).

So were densho issued then yes, and the still are today. It just depends on faction of MSR you belong to. If you are apart of the Kenshukai (the Kenshikan was the late Danzaki's dojo) an orginization created to properly pass down the teachings of Danzaki Tomoaki then you will earn densho according to the standards Danzaki set forth. If you are part of an orginization that uses MSR as a medium to improve their understanding Kendo or Aikido then most likely you will not be recieving them.

And as to what densho are issued on what level of acchievement is completely up to your faction. Not all Menkyo Kaiden(s) recieved the same number of densho. It really depended on the place and period of time you were training with Hakudo sensei. So if you were training in the Yushinkan and were among the first to earn a Menkyo Kaiden from Hakudo sensei like Zendo and Hashimoto Sensei did you would have recieved all of the densho. Keep in mind that if you earned a Menkyo Kaiden later than that in the Yushinkan you might be missing densho here and there (like Danzaki Sensei who recieved most of the densho from Hashimoto Sensei but not all). If you learned from the Yushinkai Iaido Renmei and managed to earn Menkyo Kaiden your densho may be more generalized thus you maybe missing some. The Shinden Ryu Books are a good example, out of the dozen or so people Hakudo sensei awarded Menkyo Kaiden to only about 3 or 4 were given the Shinden Ryu Books (and only a few passed them on to their students). So it is hard to give you a generalized answer about that.

It is a rather complicated subject but I hope this helps

[Chidokan]

This is interesting, as I have never considered how the MSR system developed during the pre-war period... As far as I was aware, it was a derivative of the Shimomura branch of Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu that Nakamura sensei developed into what it is today, ie MSR. I also understand that he never passed on the 'soke rank' equivalent, hence MSR being regarded as "leaderless" in the West, although menko kaiden scrolls are around...

I had also not heard of the menkyo kaiden being issued for just the seiza no bu section(Omori) of MSR/MJER, as I always understood the ryu was taught as a complete system, and you received the kaiden level after 12 years or so of continuous study, which covered seiza through to tachi waza sets. A couple I have seen also include the tachi no kurai series and Oe senseis tachi uchi no kata, but each one has been slightly different in layout, presumably because they have been written at different times by different people...

The menkyo kaiden scrolls I have seen for MJER and MSR list all of the above sets, with the shoden/chuden/okuden levels for MJER (not seen MSR) just stating name of student, level gained, date, and signed and stamped by the issuing teacher.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever seen Nakayama sensei's menkyo kaiden for Shimomura ha??? I am interested in seeing what waza are included if possible, as there are some waza I have come across that are now regarded as 'forgotten', such as sanpogiri in the okuden set of kneeling techniques...

[Simon Keegan]

Hi Tim

Hope you're well.

Just for your info:

A couple of years ago my dad went to a seminar in Strasbourg with Kenji Tose who is a 10th Dan Hanshi in MJER with Kokusai Budoin (IMAF). I understand he has taken over as head of IMAF'S Iaido division from Katsuo Yamaguchi.

Tose gave all the course participants a photocopy of his entire kata curriculum. It was a piece of A3 paper divided into sections, Omori Ryu, Eishin Ryu etc. And the title on the top of the piece of paper was Menkyo Kaiden. In other words, once you've got all these kata (in the region of seventy I believe) you've got the Menkyo Kaiden.

The sheet is all written in Japanese with both the western characters and the Kanji for each form.

So I wonder whether the Menkyo Kaiden is something Tose awards to his students?

(Just to clarify - Of course I'm not saying my dad or any of the other students were awarded the Menkyo Kaiden by Tose, I'm just saying he gave them a photocopy of his syllabus with the words Menkyo Kaiden written on the top. As to say "this is our complete syllabus")

All the best
Simon

[bushikan]

This is interesting, as I have never considered how the MSR system developed during the pre-war period... As far as I was aware, it was a derivative of the Shimomura branch of Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu that Nakamura sensei developed into what it is today, ie MSR. I also understand that he never passed on the 'soke rank' equivalent, hence MSR being regarded as "leaderless" in the West, although menko kaiden scrolls are around...

I had also not heard of the menkyo kaiden being issued for just the seiza no bu section (Omori) of MSR/MJER, as I always understood the ryu was taught as a complete system, and you received the kaiden level after 12 years or so of continuous study, which covered seiza through to tachi waza sets. A couple I have seen also include the tachi no kurai series and Oe senseis tachi uchi no kata, but each one has been slightly different in layout, presumably because they have been written at different times by different people...

The menkyo kaiden scrolls I have seen for MJER and MSR list all of the above sets, with the shoden/chuden/okuden levels for MJER (not seen MSR) just stating name of student, level gained, date, and signed and stamped by the issuing teacher.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever seen Nakayama sensei's menkyo kaiden for Shimomura ha??? I am interested in seeing what waza are included if possible, as there are some waza I have come across that are now regarded as 'forgotten', such as sanpogiri in the okuden set of kneeling techniques...

Yes, I have seen Hakudo Sensei's scrolls and kirigami menjo (not all of them but most of them). But before I begin to I should clarify a few things. The 15th headmaster (17th if you count Oe and another soke that resigned his position or died… I don’t know which. Unfortunately MJER/MSR did a really bad job recording the histories of it’s former headmasters after Oe/Hakudo) Anyway Hosokawa Yoshimasa taught Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu purely. Now what I mean by that is Oe Masamichi realized just how disorganized Tanimura/Shinmomura Ha was an decided to simplify the curriculum. He therefore combined Omori Ryu with Hasegawa Eishin Ryu and Shigenobu Ryu separating them in 3 parts: Shoden, Chuden, Okuden. Prior to this things were taught differently. Example is Omori Ryu, which was taught as a completely separate art all together. So while Tanimura Ha was conveniently organized in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Shinmomura ha remained as it was untouched by Oe's innovations (meaning it was a mess). This is why Hakudo Sensei received a Menkyo Kaiden in Omori Ryu because it was not part of the school. It was similar to how Shinto Muso Ryu teaches Ikkaku Ryu, Itattsu Ryu, and Isshin Ryu. They art taught along side SMRJ, but are not listed in the SMRJ Densho. On a side note: Hosokawa Sensei also taught alot of seperate ryu-gi along side Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu issuing Menkyo Kaiden to Hakudo Sensei in several of them.

It is funny you mention "forgotten" kata because reading over Hakudo Sensei's Mokuroku(s) I have found several kata that I have never heard of before like Sanpo-giri. What I also found strange was that the two mokuroku both cover some of the same kata and styles, but manage to structure the kata differently and have kata I have never heard before. The most structured one was ordered Hasegawa Eishin Ryu, Tachi Uchi no Kurai, Tsumeai no Kurai, Itabashi Ryu Bojutsu, Daishozume, Daishotachizume, Shigenobu Ryu, Daikendori (something to that effect, I think I might have one or two switched around somewhere) and the other Mokuroku was less orginized but it listed all of the Natsubara Ryu Yawara, and other sets of kata like Gaibutsu no gyo. There was also a scroll with other techniques in it called the Iai gokui no Hiketsu or something to that effect (I do not have my notes on me right now) listing which discussed several tactical issues and other topics, but what was interesting was there were 3 kata listed of which I have only seen one of the demonstrated in modern day: Jigoku-zo. The other kata were named Tora-Issoku Ken and the last one who name if forget in Japanese right now is translated as "In the middle of a battle, removing the head". All three were well illustraited (not as well illustrated as Shinkage Ryu, Jigen Ryu, or Taisha Ryu's makimono, but better than other drawing through the various MSER makimomo) so even if you could not read the description (which was very hard by the way alot of the kanji are no longer used in modern Japanese) you could make out what was happening based on the illustration. Side note: there are several books that contain illustrations of the Tachi Uchi no Kurai, Tsumeai no Kurai, ect.. in stick figure form (I would be curious to know if those books are still being handed down today).

In short there is ALOT of kata the both MJER and MSR are missing. MSR, if you total all of the kumitachi and iai kata like Ryohi Hikitsure, Oikaze Giri, Gishiki, and Jigoku-zo (if you practice a older version) totals to around 94-95 (not counting kumitachi kaewaza like Kurai Tori and Zume no Kurai) as compared to around 140-160 that it would have been (not counting Natsubara Ryu and Itabashi Ryu).

I wish I could give you a more detailed discription. I do note have my notes on me because I just moved to a new apartment in Japan so I have yet to have all of my things shipped to me.

Hope this helps

[Chidokan]

I must admit this historical area is difficult to penetrate even through Iwata sensei, who studied under several of Oe sensei's students. (He seems to consider it irrelevant and likes to focus more on the techniques!)
Occasionally he comes out with some little historical gems that sends even my Japanese buddies scurrying for their notebooks, but just not often enough for my liking!
He has two Menkyo Kaiden, one shimomura, one tanimura, and I have seen a couple he has written for his senior students, hence my interest. Pasi Hellsten managed to get some pics of one of the menkyo kaiden scrolls belonging to a MSR sensei (who's name escapes me at the moment!), again which bore similarities to Morinaka sensei's scroll for MJER.
I have seen earlier versions of MJER MK scrolls, but they usually seem to follow a format that Oe sensei laid down, hence the interest in scrolls that predate the change. I understand that Omori ryu is still practised as a seperate ryu, but didnt realise that Omori scrolls had the potential of being handed down inside MSR/MJER, although I was aware that Takeshima sensei from Kochi had a large collection of writings/scrolls from Oe sensei that included some of the ryu's 'hand me downs'. Unfortunately he has passed away and the new sensei in the dojo is against teaching outside his own group...so its unlikely I will get to see these now...

[Benkei the Monk]

Thanks to all for the replies, expecially to Mr Karinja- Your news are very valuable and they helped me a lot in my personal research

[Andy Watson]

Jeff/Tim

When you mention Sanpogiri from Oku suwari waza are you referring to Misumi (three corners)?

If so then this kata is still taught in MSR Dojos within the ZNKR but usually only those that derive their koryu from Danzaki Sensei (e.g. Fujita Bunzo Sensei and Kishimoto Sensei).

Anyway, just me 'ickle tuppence!

[Lance Gatling]

[QUOTE=bushikan;477618].........Prior to this things were taught differently. Example is Omori Ryu, which was taught as a completely separate art all together. So while Tanimura Ha was conveniently organized in Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Shinmomura ha remained as it was untouched by Oe's innovations (meaning it was a mess). This is why Hakudo Sensei received a Menkyo Kaiden in Omori Ryu because it was not part of the school. It was similar to how Shinto Muso Ryu teaches Ikkaku Ryu, Itattsu Ryu, and Isshin Ryu. They art taught along side SMRJ, but are not listed in the SMRJ Densho. On a side note: Hosokawa Sensei also taught alot of seperate ryu-gi along side Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu issuing Menkyo Kaiden to Hakudo Sensei in several of them.
.........

I guess you're describing what are generally called　併伝武術　heiden bujutsu, embedded martial arts. That is, the arts have been absorbed into another martial arts school, but is taught as a separate art. The certifications are taught and awarded separately, too, traditionally. They are and should be considered different arts.

Sometimes the differentiation can be pretty fine. Some years ago I came across an entire large box full of menkyo and menkyo kaiden from an old family-run archery school that had shut decades ago; apparently someone from the family got tired of having the box underfoot. When I started studying them, I was surprised to note that they were multiple certifications for multiple skills inside archery - making the arrows, making the bow, making the gloves, etc., etc. Puzzling, but surely good for business !

[bushikan]

Jeff/Tim

When you mention Sanpogiri from Oku suwari waza are you referring to Misumi (three corners)?

If so then this kata is still taught in MSR Dojos within the ZNKR but usually only those that derive their koryu from Danzaki Sensei (e.g. Fujita Bunzo Sensei and Kishimoto Sensei).

Anyway, just me 'ickle tuppence!

It hard to say, I don't have my notes to either deny or confirm that. I have heard of Misumi being an alternate name for Tozume, but I have also heard of a seperate kata in Oku-iai called Misumi. It's very possible, difference sects of MSR have several different kata that others may not practice. I have trained in 2 different sects of MSR before joining the Yushinkan and have been exposed to many different interpetations of kata from each sect (also some have what I guess you can call "bonus" kata).
As to what Lance said yes, Omori Ryu was an Heiden Bujutsu, but the other arts Hosokawa Sensei taught I don't think could be classified as that. Ryu-ha like Shin Tamiya Ryu, Shinkage Ryu Jujutsu (a simplifed form of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu), a version of Takeouchi Ryu (I forget the ha's exact name) and Muraku Ryu I don't think could be classified as Heiden Bujutsu.

The archery densho you found sounds very interesting. Too bad the schools like that went under

regards

[Chidokan]

Hi Andy, I don't see why Misumi couldn't be that oddball one...it would make sense.
I'll throw some questions over to my connections in Japan and see what comes back, they are here in a couple of weeks and can bring the answers over with them!

[Hellsten]

Hi all!

Yes, I have seen Hakudo Sensei's scrolls and kirigami menjo (not all of them but most of them).

I am interested in Hakudo’s history so I would like to use this opportunity to check some points, if possible.

I would like to know who has signed those scrolls as I have understood that Hosokawa Yoshimichi gave Hakudo only a menkyo (= teaching licence) and Morimoto Tokumi later gave him a menkyo kaiden (= Kongen no maki?).

Ueda Heitaro was Hakudo’s kendo student but Hosokawa Yoshimasa’s iai student. Ueda has told that Hosokawa complained that Hakudo does not listen to him and is doing his own way. That might be the reason why Hosokawa did not give Hakudo a menkyo kaiden?

By the way, the lineage from Ueda goes to Ogata and the name of their ryu is simply “Shinden Ryu”, and they are/were a member of ZNIR (I am not sure how the situation is today).

Lineage from Bugei Ryuha Dai Jiten: http://www.iaido.fi/Articles/hasegaw...keito-BRDJ.pdf)

The 15th headmaster (17th if you count Oe and another soke that resigned his position or died… I don’t know which.

Even in many English language sources Hakudo is mentioned as 16th generation (not necessarily soke or headmaster of the ryu) I wonder if this info comes from Warner and Draeger’s book “Japanese Swordsmanship”, as some other sources maintain that Hakudo is 18th generation....

Takada Sensei has told us that after an enbu at the Hayashizaki iai jinja Hakudo signed the temple book as the dai 18 dai...

About Ôe’s Shimomura-ha sokeship... I asked Iwata Sensei about this, as at one seminar it was told that Ôe was a soke in the Shimomura-ha line also. But Iwata Sensei said that there never was a sokeship ceremony for Ôe. So he thinks Ôe was not officially a soke in that line, even though it is said he has awarded a menkyo kaiden by Shimomura Moichi. In fact, I suspect that there never was a soke in the Shimomura-ha line and the term “sokeship” has adopted later in the Jikiden line.

... Pasi Hellsten managed to get some pics of one of the menkyo kaiden scrolls belonging to a MSR sensei ...

Actually that was a Muso Shinden Jushin Ryu scroll (as it is handwritten it is a little difficult to read). But even in a book by Kimura Eiju (soke of the Muso Shinden Jushin Ryu) Hakudo is mentioned as the 18th successor.

http://www.iaido.fi/Articles/MSJR%20lineage.pdf

I understand that Omori ryu is still practised as a seperate ryu, but didnt realise that Omori scrolls had the potential of being handed down inside MSR/MJER, although I was aware that Takeshima sensei from Kochi had a large collection of writings/scrolls from Oe sensei that included some of the ryu's 'hand me downs'.

I remember that when Takada Sensei told us years ago about the time he was a beginner (this was in the mid 50’s), he mentioned an old Omori Ryu teacher who was a 10th dan and had a menkyo kaiden in that art. I assume he was not a member of MJER or MSR. I do not see the point of someone inside MJER or MSR handing down a separate Omori Ryu densho. Omori Ryu is, after all, nowadays a part of both Ryu and it is not trained separately. In the old days when Takada Sensei started his Iaido career, at the dojo where he trained they used for these sets the names Omori Ryu (not Shoden) and Hasegawa Eishin Ryu (not Chuden).

Best wishes

Pasi Hellsten
http://www.musoshindenryu.fi/index_en.html

[bushikan]

Hi all!

I am interested in Hakudo’s history so I would like to use this opportunity to check some points, if possible.

I would like to know who has signed those scrolls as I have understood that Hosokawa Yoshimichi gave Hakudo only a menkyo (= teaching licence) and Morimoto Tokumi later gave him a menkyo kaiden (= Kongen no maki?).

Ueda Heitaro was Hakudo’s kendo student but Hosokawa Yoshimasa’s iai student. Ueda has told that Hosokawa complained that Hakudo does not listen to him and is doing his own way. That might be the reason why Hosokawa did not give Hakudo a menkyo kaiden?

By the way, the lineage from Ueda goes to Ogata and the name of their ryu is simply “Shinden Ryu”, and they are/were a member of ZNIR (I am not sure how the situation is today).

Lineage from Bugei Ryuha Dai Jiten: http://www.iaido.fi/Articles/hasegaw...keito-BRDJ.pdf)

Even in many English language sources Hakudo is mentioned as 16th generation (not necessarily soke or headmaster of the ryu) I wonder if this info comes from Warner and Draeger’s book “Japanese Swordsmanship”, as some other sources maintain that Hakudo is 18th generation....

Takada Sensei has told us that after an enbu at the Hayashizaki iai jinja Hakudo signed the temple book as the dai 18 dai..

About Ôe’s Shimomura-ha sokeship... I asked Iwata Sensei about this, as at one seminar it was told that Ôe was a soke in the Shimomura-ha line also. But Iwata Sensei said that there never was a sokeship ceremony for Ôe. So he thinks Ôe was not officially a soke in that line, even though it is said he has awarded a menkyo kaiden by Shimomura Moichi. In fact, I suspect that there never was a soke in the Shimomura-ha line and the term “sokeship” has adopted later in the Jikiden line.

Actually that was a Muso Shinden Jushin Ryu scroll (as it is handwritten it is a little difficult to read). But even in a book by Kimura Eiju (soke of the Muso Shinden Jushin Ryu) Hakudo is mentioned as the 18th successor.

http://www.iaido.fi/Articles/MSJR%20lineage.pdf

I remember that when Takada Sensei told us years ago about the time he was a beginner (this was in the mid 50’s), he mentioned an old Omori Ryu teacher who was a 10th dan and had a menkyo kaiden in that art. I assume he was not a member of MJER or MSR. I do not see the point of someone inside MJER or MSR handing down a separate Omori Ryu densho. Omori Ryu is, after all, nowadays a part of both Ryu and it is not trained separately. In the old days when Takada Sensei started his Iaido career, at the dojo where he trained they used for these sets the names Omori Ryu (not Shoden) and Hasegawa Eishin Ryu (not Chuden).

Best wishes

Pasi Hellsten
http://www.musoshindenryu.fi/index_en.html

Your right. Hakudo recieved only a menkyo from Hosokawa Sensei. I have heard of several reasons for this: the Keppan between Hakudo and Hosokawa Sensei (which prevented him from demonstraiting the style in it's pure form outside of Hosokawa's supervision and it also later prevented him from naming a successor), rather slanderous rumors, and the fact that (as you said) Hakudo Sensei was a difficult student.

Prior to being accepted into Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu (Shinmomura ha) Hakudo Sensei represented Shindo Munen Ryu in several duels and was famous for defeating Ozawa Jiro and Takano Shigeyoshi of Hokushin Itto Ryu, Koseki Kiyomasa of Muhen Ryu, and Sasaki Masanobu of Suifu Ryu. His victories earned him the name "Kendo no Kamisama" (The God of Kendo). These made Hakudo a difficult student to accept into another style let alone to teach. How do you teach someone who was consitered to be the best swordsmen in Japan at the time?

Ogawa Sensei mentioned to me that Hakudo Sensei fought often with Shimizu Takaji and Oe Masamichi. So it does not surprise me that Hakudo Sensei fought with Hosokawa as well. Hakudo Sensei was already skilled in Iai though his training in Shindo Munen Ryu. Though SMRK and MSR have very different ideas of how to go about iai. In terms of grip Munen Ryu shifts and slides up the Tsuka inorder to cut, contorts the body to preform cuts at unusual angles, and have 3 very distinct noto(s), one of which became the standard noto for MSR. So his ideas of iai developed from Munen Ryu probably clashed with Hosokawa's on several occasions.

In the Yushinkan as well Hakudo Sensei is listed as 18th Headmaster of Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu (not the 16th). The lineage goes: Hosokawa -- Morimoto Tokumi -- Nakayama Hakudo (I am not exactly sure where Oe fits in). There are some lineages that discount Oe Masamichi and Morimoto Tokumi because as you mentioned they were not formally named "Soke", but were menkyo kaiden.

In terms of Omori Ryu. When Hosokawa Sensei was incharge Omori Ryu was a Heiden Bujutsu. It was taught a seperate art from Eishin Ryu (the same way that Ikkaku Ryu, Ittatsu Ryu, and Isshin Ryu are taught in correlation Shinto Muso Ryu). So it was not uncommon for someone to recieve menkyo kaiden in a Heiden Bujutsu before the main art (exspecially if that Heiden Bujutsu has a small repertoire). Nakayama Sensei received Menkyo Kaiden in Omori Ryu well before he recieved Menkyo in Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu. Only after he reformated MSER into MSR was Omori Ryu labeled as Shoden and taught as part of a whole system.

There is alot more to Nakayama Sensei that I did not go into, but I hope this helps

regards

[Hellsten]

Your right. Hakudo recieved only a menkyo from Hosokawa Sensei...
In terms of Omori Ryu. When Hosokawa Sensei was incharge Omori Ryu was a Heiden Bujutsu. It was taught a seperate art from Eishin Ryu (the same way that Ikkaku Ryu, Ittatsu Ryu, and Isshin Ryu are taught in correlation Shinto Muso Ryu). So it was not uncommon for someone to recieve menkyo kaiden in a Heiden Bujutsu before the main art (exspecially if that Heiden Bujutsu has a small repertoire). Nakayama Sensei received Menkyo Kaiden in Omori Ryu well before he recieved Menkyo in Muso Shinden Eishin Ryu. Only after he reformated MSER into MSR was Omori Ryu labeled as Shoden and taught as part of a whole system.
regards

Thank you for informative answer, makes one think... Anyway, after reading Nakayama Hakudo’s personal history from Kendo Nippon magazines I have to respect him as he rose from poverty to be one of the best-known swordsmen of his time.

One of my anideshi, Jukka Helminen, reminds me of Omori Ryu. When he was in Japan in 2003 he participated in a Nippon Iaido Kyokai (NIK) enbu. This was actually some kind of a co-operative enbu, where there were participants from other ryuha and organisations as well, not just NIK: Muso Shinden Ryu, Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (Sugino-ha), Omori Ryu, Tosa Koryu, Sekiguchi ryu and Keishi-cho ryu.

After the enbu there was a ceremony, where among others Masatoshi Okouchi, kyoshi, got his 8th dan rank. I was told that Takada Sensei referred to him as headmaster of Omori ryu and that in the enbu Okouchi Sensei’s techniques were close to Muso Shinden Ryu, but a little bit different from Takada Sensei’s Shoden.

Jukka thought that as Nakayama Hakudo was teaching all over Japan, maybe there were some groups, which trained just Omori ryu. Some of these may have survived to this day thus continuing this tradition “pure”, perhaps...

Best wishes

Pasi Hellsten