Has anyone heard of this guy?

[ElfTengu]

Not XKan = Fake

Simple as

Pure as

Nuff said.

Even a poorly skilled shodan who goes off and starts his own ninjutsu school is more authentic than Ron Duncan will EVER be because at least the crap shodan's new art has sprung from something genuine even if it aint much good.

I don't care how gifted *certain* people think Duncan is a martial artist, and I am with those who believe he isn't, the fact is that you can't invent a new style of ninjutsu that has no links to any genuine Japanese Ryuha of that art.

I've used this analogy before but it would be as absurd as me, a British chap who has never been to America, starting my own Navajo Knife Fighting Method and paying no attention or seeking no guidance from a real expert in said methods.

Californian Maki rolls are just about the only acceptable American version of something Japanese and even they are based on genuine maki, rather than being made out of cheeze whizz and oreos, which is basically what Duncan's American Ninjutsu is.

[Kagemaru]

"Certifications, awards and documentation was verbal, not written."
i'm also head of koka ryu, but it's verbal. nuff said. also i have the power to summon a giant ninja fish. prove i don't. fujita seiko himself said he didn't teach anyone ninjutsu, i think thats "nuff said" right there.

Prove it. Just because that is what you read, how do you know it's true?

Tanemura sensei is a great martial artist indeed! But that won't change my view on Ron Duncan's hodge-podge of Koga ryu, and "Aieekee Jujutsu". Have you viewed the koga ryu ninjutsu tape? People like winddemon(mentioned by Don I think) jump out of the woodwork and say we dont like him, because he's black...no I dont like him because he's a liar, and teaches stuff that could get you killed.


oh and have a lovely fall day.

I never brought anything up about race in this dialogue, so it must be in your sub-concious for you to inject that into this discussion. A "Fraudian" slip of sorts? In anycase, I think it's fair and safe to say that more people who have trained with him, and who find themselves in harms way as a profession, would say that what he has taught them has done more to save lives then get people killed. That is why he continues to have a good standing relationship and enloys the respect of many agencies, not to mention the US Marine Corps.

Oh, and a tooty fruity sun shiny day to you too!

he's actually indian and hispanic not black.

Uh, no he IS Black. For the record, Africa is a massive continent, with an ancient past that lies at the foundation of all of the worlds cultures. There were Blacks in India, Blacks in Spain (The Moors actually ran Spain for more than 800 years), Blacks in the Americas (Olmecs, not slaves), and many other places where you would be very surprised to find them. I can tell you with no uncertainty, that if you ask him if he is a Black man, his answer would be firm yes (and he would probably look at you as if you were blind!).

Ahh, thanks for the correction. All I do know is that he is Panamanian, and Winddemon used to get a single tear about the shining light, the proud Black Father of American Ninjitsu..

Seriously Jon, you are starting to worry me. Do you harbor some deep seaded racism? Your constant preoccupation with race in this discussion is disturbing. Why should the race of this man be even included in this discussion? Again, I did not say anything about race (nor did anyone else in this thread) so it is beyond me as to why you are bringing things from other threads concerning the mans race into this current discussion. It appears that you are trying to inject race as an issue into this ( and in quite a derogatory manor, I might add) . I am surprised at you Jon. I would have thought that beneath you.

ElfTengu

Not XKan = Fake

Simple as

Pure as

Nuff said.

Even a poorly skilled shodan who goes off and starts his own ninjutsu school is more authentic than Ron Duncan will EVER be because at least the crap shodan's new art has sprung from something genuine even if it aint much good.

I don't care how gifted *certain* people think Duncan is a martial artist, and I am with those who believe he isn't, the fact is that you can't invent a new style of ninjutsu that has no links to any genuine Japanese Ryuha of that art.

I've used this analogy before but it would be as absurd as me, a British chap who has never been to America, starting my own Navajo Knife Fighting Method and paying no attention or seeking no guidance from a real expert in said methods.

Californian Maki rolls are just about the only acceptable American version of something Japanese and even they are based on genuine maki, rather than being made out of cheeze whizz and oreos, which is basically what Duncan's American Ninjutsu is.

That is a very broad sweeping and quite childish statement. It is amazing how some people selectively choose to ignore the proof that has been precented that confirms his martial arts background ( sans the picture of him and Fujita holding a framed Menkyo with Draeger looking on wistfully, while a clock in the background accents a huge calender). But more importantly, young and fairly disrespectful people have the comfort and ability of sitting in an armchair halfway across the world and making desparaging statements about someone who has been around so much longer than them, without fear of repercussion. As I said, I would have so much more respect for a person if they would actually go to New York and see the man, then report back to us here on what the outcome was. I am sure we would all like to hear that.

Anyway, it'll never happen so you guys believe what you want if it makes your paradigm feel more secure. I will be going to NY in November for a visit, and I most probably will see Duncan. I will be sure to send him your very best regards.

[Prospero]

Prove it. Just because that is what you read, how do you know it's true?

For a reference to the fact that Fujita said he would not teach anyone his art, look up my internet article on the Koga ryu, see the Hiden source I reference and read it.

Now, show proof that Duncan learned Koga ryu from Draeger. It is something that happened to him, so he should be able to prove it. If he can't, then he is the same boat as Ashida Kim who won't show proof of learning from the person he claims as his teacher.

[Kagemaru]

For a reference to the fact that Fujita said he would not teach anyone his art, look up my internet article on the Koga ryu, see the Hiden source I reference and read it.

Now, show proof that Duncan learned Koga ryu from Draeger. It is something that happened to him, so he should be able to prove it. If he can't, then he is the same boat as Ashida Kim who won't show proof of learning from the person he claims as his teacher.

How about a link? And just because you referenced some Hiden source, doesn't make it a fact that he didn't teach anyone else. That simply CANNOT be proven. What CAN be proven is that he did not name a successor.

Are you a Christian? Do you believe in God? Can you prove his existence, or the existence of a historic Jesus? Because other than the bible (which is by no means an accurate historic text) there is absolutely NO mention of him among contemporary historians and scholars. But that doesn't stop millions of people worldwide from enjoying the benefits of the Christian religion. Despite what has been said about the climate of the times and the manner in which training was done (written about by Ernie Cates himself) you conveniently overlook that and just keep saying the same thing, so there will never be progress for people like you on this subject. You will just die set in your ways, and honestly that is just fine with me because it doesn't diminish me in the least. If you think the man is a fraud, so be it. But if that's true, then it is true for Jesus, Mohammed, and the Buddha, so I guess Duncan is in good company.

[Prospero]

How about a link? And just because you referenced some Hiden source, doesn't make it a fact that he didn't teach anyone else.

He said he did not teach anyone his art of ninjutsu. A simple google search will provide my article and the sources I based it on. If you are too lazy to look them up, then you are beneath contempt.

Or find even a single source in Japanese that he taught ninjutsu to someone else. You want us to believe that he would teach Namban Setto ryu to Japanese, but not ninjutsu and yet teach his ninjutusu to someone he would not even acknowledge due to his US military ties? Do you think we are stupid?

Are you a Christian?

No. Thank you drive through.

And I think even the christians are insulted by you trying to equate Duncan with christ. Christ is dead over 2000 years. Duncan is still alive. So who can you go to ask to prove what personally happened to them? So if Duncan can't prove he learned from Draeger, can't even prove that Draeger said he learned ninjutsu from Fujita, doesn't that make him a complete fraud?

[Kagemaru]

He said he did not teach anyone his art of ninjutsu. A simple google search will provide my article and the sources I based it on. If you are too lazy to look them up, then you are beneath contempt.

Wow. Beneath contempt. Heavy. I work for a living and I do not have time to look up your article, but a martial arts man is knowledgeable of Martial affais, so of course I am aware of the references you are alluding to. But that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't PROVE anything because you read it in a Japanese magazine anymore than if you read it in an English magazine. Do you believe everything you read?

You want us to believe that he would teach Namban Setto ryu to Japanese, but not ninjutsu and yet teach his ninjutusu to someone he would not even acknowledge due to his US military ties? Do you think we are stupid?

I don't want you to believe anything. You can believe what you want. What I said is that it is not outside of the realm of possibilities that he may have shown some of his Ninjutsu to someone, who may have shown it to someone else or to Draeger himself. We simply do not have a way of proving that. So absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, in this case. As to whether I think you are stupid, only you know yourself so you tell me.

No. Thank you drive through.

And I think even the christians are insulted by you trying to equate Duncan with christ.

You are just full of conjecture, aren't you? You are not Christian, you say, so how come you are complaining for them? In anycase, I am not being disrespectful, nor am I equating Duncan to Christ in the theological sense. I am simply using it as an analogy. I think any Christian who is a true follower of Christ can see that.

Christ is dead over 2000 years. Duncan is still alive. So who can you go to ask to prove what personally happened to them? So

I seems you are not a learned man sometimes. There were several historians who were contempory (Josephus is the one who most prominantly comes to mind) that documented very well all of the things that went on at that time. They documented the little occurences such as the flooding of rivers, to the big political happenings at the time. I think it safe to say that Jesus would have been one of the biggest political happenings at the time, and his trial, subsequent death, and then miraculous ressurection would have surely got on someones radar. Yet we find nothing. Draw your own conclusions, but by your rational that would mean Jesus never existed.

[Baio]

yes jesus didn't exist, we have no evidence for jesus existing. fujita did exist. fujita HIMSELF recorded in more than one source that ninjutsu dies with him. he passed his other arts on to a person, but not ninjutsu. that person has specifically said fujita never taught ninjutsu. fujita didn't think ninjutsu was meant for modern times and didn't want it to continue existing. the only ninjutsu donn draeger would have known is from tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu and he was adamant about not showing anything from that art because of the keppan. of course if anyone did learn koka ryu ninjutsu from fujita they should be able to name and demonstrate the first technique taught, and until phillip t hevener's book came out not one "koga" ninja could name this technique.

[Kagemaru]

yes jesus didn't exist, we have no evidence for jesus existing. fujita did exist. fujita HIMSELF recorded in more than one source that ninjutsu dies with him. he passed his other arts on to a person, but not ninjutsu. that person has specifically said fujita never taught ninjutsu. fujita didn't think ninjutsu was meant for modern times and didn't want it to continue existing. the only ninjutsu donn draeger would have known is from tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu and he was adamant about not showing anything from that art because of the keppan. of course if anyone did learn koka ryu ninjutsu from fujita they should be able to name and demonstrate the first technique taught, and until phillip t hevener's book came out not one "koga" ninja could name this technique.

Yep. But no one is saying that Duncans American Koga Ryu is related to Fujita's directly. This is all conjectur. Ok, let's look at this another way. My teacher (and your teacher also) has some old students who may have been high ranking students (yon dan or Go dan) back in the day. For some reason, these students left the kan. At the time they left, they did not have permission to teach, but they were capable, knowledgeable martial artist. Let's say one of these guys teaches a friend in the back yard for a few years, and the friend get's really good at it. He names off a couple of Ryu-ha as the source of the techniques. This friend then joins the military, joins the judo team, and teaches another friend, naming the same ryu ha as source. Now there has been no paperwork exchange, no lineage, but to a certain extent they are still practicing Ninjutsu. Now at this point, let's say the friend of the friend goes on in the martial arts and eventually becomes very good at what he has learned, and has synergized his knowledge with the essence of the Ninjutsu he has learned, and calls it American Ninjutsu. Now, he doesn't even know the original Go-dan that studied directly under the kan. So when he is asked where did he get his knowledge from he is going to list off all the people he trained with, including the friend of the go-dan, who himself does not have any official connection to the Kan. My point is, you can see how quickly the truth and the connection can get lost and convoluted.

My point is, and I'm going to leave it right here, is that WE DON'T KNOW. We can speculate, we can research, we can do whatever, but we cannot say for sure that there was not somehow a connection between Draeger and Fujita and Duncan, however diluted. And in the end, what does it matter? If he wants to call his art American Ninjutsu, so be it. Why is anybody so caught up in it that they have to resort to childish name calling and characterization?

Your teacher once said something that I have always cherished. He said "Shut up and train". Brilliant.

[Prospero]

Yep. But no one is saying that Duncans American Koga Ryu is related to Fujita's directly.

Duncan did. He claimed to have learned from Fujita. You said so yourself.

Ashida Kim claims to have learned from a guy but can't prove it. We treat him as a fraud. You do to. Duncan claims to have learned Koga ryu ninjutsu from Fujita and can't prove even that. We treat him as a fraud. Why are you not consistent?

There is no excuse for not being able to prove you had a teacher. Since Duncan claims it and can't prove it, he is in the same boat as Ashida Kim.

[Baio]

we have record of fujita himself saying he did not teach ninjutsu. it's that simple. if you take fujita out of the equation and stick to the people duncan claims he trained with you're left with draeger who would also never teach the ninjutsu aspect of tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu to people outside the ryu. duncan does karate and hakko ryu jujutsu, some of his guys copy bujinkan videos but old duncan stuff when he was demonstrating his "art" shows it's not ninjutsu

[Kagemaru]

we have record of fujita himself saying he did not teach ninjutsu. it's that simple. if you take fujita out of the equation and stick to the people duncan claims he trained with you're left with draeger who would also never teach the ninjutsu aspect of tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu to people outside the ryu. duncan does karate and hakko ryu jujutsu, some of his guys copy bujinkan videos but old duncan stuff when he was demonstrating his "art" shows it's not ninjutsu

Actually that is not true and I am not going to go into it again because it just seems like people see and hear only what they want. A link was posted in this thread where Duncan has listed who some of his teachers and training partners were, so please read through it. He listed many people including Ernie Neal, Charlie Cates, and others. But you people keep trying to link him directly to Fujita, which he never claimed.

Here is a video of what Duncan does, and what he has said himself regarding his Ninjutsu. Straight from the horses mouth. Notice never did he say he was a student of Fujita. He has said that he has trained with Draeger, and that is what cannot be proven succinctly, although there is enough corroborating evidence to put him in the same place and time so it is well within the realm of possibilities that it is true, and unless it can be dis-proven succinctly and completely, then no one has the right to say he didn't because you were not there. And it cannot be proven that Draeger would NEVER teach some aspect of Katori Shinto Ryu Ninjutsu to someone. That is a major assumption. Draeger was a marine, and anyone who is familiar with that branch of service knows how loyal marines are to each other. So it is very possible that Draeger could have shared some aspects of his knowledge with the younger marines. His loyalty would be to the corp and to America first, so it is quite possible that he may have shared it with his fellow American soldiers, men that he would ultimately be willing to die for. The fact is, WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.

Anyway, see for yourself.

Way of the Winds System-American Koga Ryu Ninjutsu

[Baio]

"And it cannot be proven that Draeger would NEVER teach some aspect of Katori Shinto Ryu Ninjutsu to someone."

you can't prove a negative of course. nice way to insult draegers convictions, he wouldn't discuss the art with anyone who was a legtimate scholar, but passes on the most secret aspects of it to a guy who's going to dance around in a satin disco suit catching arrows and claiming it's ninjutsu.

[Prospero]

The fact is, WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW.

We could say the same thing about Ashida Kim, could we not?

You yourself said that you heard Duncan claim to have learned Koga ryu ninjutsu from Draeger. He should be able to prove that. Since he can't, he is no better than Ashida Kim.

And if you look at the early stuff, he was calling what he did Koga ryu and not American ninjutsu. The indicates a link to the Koga ryu, which of course he can't prove. He can't even prove a teacher in ninjutsu and you are trying to say that maybe he was taught. That seems pretty silly to me.

[Kagemaru]

"And it cannot be proven that Draeger would NEVER teach some aspect of Katori Shinto Ryu Ninjutsu to someone."

you can't prove a negative of course. nice way to insult draegers convictions, he wouldn't discuss the art with anyone who was a legtimate scholar, but passes on the most secret aspects of it to a guy who's going to dance around in a satin disco suit catching arrows and claiming it's ninjutsu.

Wow. You are really judgmental. Now I am insulting Draegers convictions because I said it is possible he could have shared some aspect of what he knew with his fellow marines? How is that insulting his convictions? You want to know what I think his convictions were? "SEMPRE FI!". Once a marine, always a marine. He could care less about so-called "legitimate scholars", but he would die for his fellow marines, so yes it IS possible and I see no insult in stating that.

As for the Satin Dogi, it was a demonstration. This was the 70's and 80's so that was the manner of the day. I have seen Hatsumi teach and demonstrate wearing a Hawaiian shirt and golf shorts! So what?

[Baio]

from the video you posted duncan says he's learned various styles from koka.
who's his teacher? not draeger since he didn't learn koka ryu.
duncan says as follows.
nindai ryu - no nindai ryu listed in the bugei ryuha daijiten
naha ryu - no naha ryu of ninjutsu, only the karate but thats nowhere near koka
tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu - not from koka of course
masaki ryu - not ninjutsu, manrikigusari this name was of course taken by duncan because of charles gruzanski's popularity. nawa sensei was a researcher of ninjutsu but this was not a ninjutsu art.

so no ninjutsu