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Thread: Embu: Hontai Yoshin Ryu

  1. #31
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    Mr. Schweinhart, Mr. Buyens, Mr. Weigel and others,

    Glad to see a good discussion here on this historically rich ryuha. I’ll add what I think is the truth based on the research I have done into this ryuha. Although admittedly my sources are limited and I have never visited the Kakuno-den groups, but I do have most of the public material put out by them (brhdjt, nihon kobudo soran, etc) including all their respective websites.

    Here is what we know in a “nutshell” broken down in simple form so we can all see it clearer. I’ll list the more well known groups with their lineages starting from Yagi Ikugoro with only surname to save space and so its easy to follow along.

    Also to point out (reminded to me by George Kohler), Yagi Ikugoro never gave the “sokeship” to one person, so the 3-4 (Ishitani Takeo, Fujita Togoro, Inoue Kumataro, Hirano Jiemon) who got menkyo kaiden from him all started their own branches causing much of the confusing we’re experiencing today.

    Ishiya can also be read/pronounced/romanized as Ishitani as is well known.

    Also Ishiya (Ishitani) Matsutaro is honorarily listed in the lineages for Kakuno-den but didn’t teach Kakuno Happeita so I’ll leave him out.

    Takagi-ryu (aka Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu):
    Yagi, Ishiya 1, Kakuno, Tsutsui, Kusuhara, Kusuhara.
    (koryu, possible alterations in Meiji, Taisho and Showa)

    Hontai Yoshin-ryu (Fumon Yoshin-ryu):
    Yagi, Ishiya 1, Kakuno, Minaki, Inoue 1, Inoue 2.
    (gendai based on koryu, Showa alterations, created by Minaki Saburo based on the changes started by Kakuno Happeita, founded in 1939)

    Moto-ha Yoshin-ryu:
    Yagi, Ishiya 1, Kakuno, Minaki, Inoue 1, Yasumoto.
    (gendai based on koryu, Heisei alterations, Yasumoto received his menkyo kaiden from Minaki though founded by Yasumoto)

    Yamato Yoshin-ryu:
    Yagi, Ishiya 1, Kakuno, Minaki, Kitada, Imai.
    (gendai based on koryu, Heisei alterations founded by Kitada)

    Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu:
    Yagi, Fujita, Mizuta, Takamatsu, Ueno, Kaminaga (koryu, Meiji alterations by Mizuta, possible Showa alterations)

    Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu jutai: (Hatsumi’s line is a combo of both Ishitani and Mizuta lines)
    Yagi, Ishitani 1, Ishitani 2, Takamatsu, Hatsumi (koryu, possible alterations in Showa)
    Yagi, Fujita, Mizuta, Takamatsu, Hatsumi (koryu, Meiji alterations by Mizuta, possible Showa alterations)

    Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu:
    Yagi, Ishitani 1, Ishitani 2, Takamatsu, Sato, Tanemura (koryu, possible alterations in Showa)

    There are other lesser-known groups still active (like the Ishizaki-den, Fujitani-den, etc) but I’ll leave those out since the majority only know of the above and it will only add to further possible confusion.

    This is what I have found and how I see it, if you disagree please correct where I am wrong as I am open to friendly debate and welcome expanding my horizons. Seems like the FACT is that all the branches of Takagi based arts/lineages have all been altered to some degree at some point in their histories since the time of the Meiji restoration. Mr. Schweinhart can fill you in on a lot more regarding the use and name of the school(s).

    Hope this helps,
    with respect to all the branches,
    Eric
    Last edited by Shinobi; 8th September 2009 at 04:25.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  2. #32
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    Dear Mr Weil

    Thank you for this post. I agree, that the listened shools are the better-known groups still active in the large family tree of Takagi ryu.

    I want to comment one point:
    Why you classify HYR, MHYR and YYR as gendai based on Koryu?
    I know, there are some different ways to classify a koryu. And i dont want to bring up this disscussion here, couse it has the potential to kill this treat.
    All of them are in legit kaiden lines. And as you wrote yourself:

    "Seems like the FACT is that all the branches of Takagi based arts/lineages have all been altered to some degree at some point in their histories since the time of the Meiji restoration."
    All have changed also after Meiji, so that cant be the point, becouse than all the lines would be gendai.
    Maybe you mean they dont use the Name Takagi? Again, Names and Technikes can be altered by lizensed people. None of them start something completly new and different like atarashi naginata or Kendo, or Aikido (This i would name gendai based on Koryu)

    I would prefere to classify all this lines as Koryu.
    You seem to have some knowledge. Maybe you can offer some insights into the history, or stories about teacher involved or all the small things that are different or same in the branches, becouse that brings more light to this as you write "historically rich ryuha" for all branches.

    Todd the story about the Take do of Minaki sounds interesting. Yasumoto sensei recoment a do especially to exercise Tanto dori in a more fast way.
    He was surprised, that i dont have some in my dojo (theyre expensive when you buy new one here in germany)
    And offer to by some old from some Kendoka around to give me in Oktober when i go to Japan.


    best
    Tim Weigel

  3. #33

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    Now we are rolling fellas! We have a new addition to the discussion! Welcome Mr. Weil!

    Good posts men!

    This is where the discussion could become sticky. The difference in Koryu or Gendai...I was hinting at this in my prior posts and mentioned that we need someone from one of the organisations in Japan that determine what is and what is not, Koryu. For example HYR is categorized as Koryu but why is that? I have thoughts on this and might also add that one of the determining factors would be style of teaching and structure of licensing. This would in my opinion not categorize the Bujinkan or some other groups as koryu.

    I might also add, what I think Eric is stating is that the branches under Minaki sensei do not contain the older sets of kata. This was the criteria used for my earlier statements. This is why I classify them as Gendai, in that they have totally left out many of the older sets and created a "new" system of kata.

    Don't stone me...just my observations.

    Best,

    Todd Schweinhart

    WWW.YOSHINDOJO.COM

  4. #34
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    While we are at it. Is there someone here who can help me with reliable ínformation on the dates of birth/death for the following important persons of the Takagi Ryu:

    -Kakuno Happeita (Hachiheita)
    -Ishitani (Ishiya) Matsutaro
    -Ishitani (Ishiya) Takeo
    -Yagi Ikuguro
    -Takamatsu Yasaburo

    Regards / Skuggvarg
    Richard Maier
    Bujinkan Kasuga Dojo
    Kasuga Dojo Teaser clip

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