Differences between three Toyama Ryu groups

[tomi]

Hello,

Can somebody tell me what are differences between three Toyma ryu groups ( Nakamura-ha, Yamaguchi-ha and Morinaga-ha ) ?

I understand that there are diffrent sets of katas in different groups, like yari vs. sword or bajonet vs. sword.

Can somebody give more precise information ?

Tomi Försti, Finland

[dsomers]

I am from Morinaga Ha lineage, so I will try to explain the base curriculum to you as best as I can.
We train Kiso Iai, Hon Iai, and Happo Nukki.
Kiso Iai are literally fundamental Iai kata, they are done by drawing the sword, taking on Chu Dan No Kamae, approach the target, and cut.
Hon Iai is the main set of Kata taught by all the groups. The 1st 5 are very similar to the other groups, with only some minor differences. Like we use Makko Giri in some instances, when other schools might use Kesa Giri.
Then there is Happo Nuki, which are basically quick draw techniques done in 8 directions.
That is the base curriculum, there are Kumitachi for the kiso Iai taught, like bunkai to those kata. Tameshigiri is also trained, within our organization they like to use Bamboo instead of Tatami in Japan, which is another difference. Then there are variations on the Happo Nuki taught later on, as well. I hope this helps.

[Guy Buyens]

Hello,

Can somebody tell me what are differences between three Toyma ryu groups ( Nakamura-ha, Yamaguchi-ha and Morinaga-ha ) ?

I used to train in Toyama-ryu under Inoue Tsuyoshi Munetoshi (also 18th soke of Hontai Yoshin ryu) and Kurishima Sensei in Nishinomiya who used to teach Yamaguchi-ha Toyama-ryu.

From what I recall from my teachers, Toyama ryu was created by Nakayama Hakudo sensei, who was an instructor for the Japanese army. Although his background was Eishin-ryu, he wanted to focus on techniques suited for the army. Therefore suwariwasa techniques were not included. One of the places where he taught was the Toyama Gakko in Tokyo. After the war, some senior students wanted to preserve Toyama-ryu and they continued to train.

The 3 branches you mention all originated from Nakayama’s teaching. Morinaga, who was teaching at the Toyama Gakko, was a colonel, whose superior was Usawa Kyuzo, a major-general. Another sub-ordinate of Usawa (although a lower rank than Morinaga) was Yamaguchi.
Nakamura came later and can be considered their student.

Although there has been an attempt by the 3 people to unite the 3 Toyama-ryu styles in Kyoto (during the First Zen Koku Taikai, in 1976), this turned out not to be successful.

Although the 3 branches have a bit different techniques, I was told that they were very close. Of course I can only speak of what was passed down by Yamaguchi Yuuki sensei who I have only met twice. Once in 1989 and again some years later. At both occasions he travelled from Sappporo (Hokaido), where he lived, to the south of Japan by car (the last time he was in his late nineties).

[Lance Gatling]

I used to train in Toyama-ryu under Inoue Tsuyoshi Munetoshi (also 18th soke of Hontai Yoshin ryu) and Kurishima Sensei in Nishinomiya who used to teach Yamaguchi-ha Toyama-ryu.

From what I recall from my teachers, Toyama ryu was created by Nakayama Hakudo sensei, who was an instructor for the Japanese army. Although his background was Eishin-ryu, he wanted to focus on techniques suited for the army. Therefore suwariwasa techniques were not included. One of the places where he taught was the Toyama Gakko in Tokyo. After the war, some senior students wanted to preserve Toyama-ryu and they continued to train.

The 3 branches you mention all originated from Nakayama’s teaching. Morinaga, who was teaching at the Toyama Gakko, was a colonel, whose superior was Usawa Kyuzo, a major-general. Another sub-ordinate of Usawa (although a lower rank than Morinaga) was Yamaguchi.
Nakamura came later and can be considered their student.

Although there has been an attempt by the 3 people to unite the 3 Toyama-ryu styles in Kyoto (during the First Zen Koku Taikai, in 1976), this turned out not to be successful.

Although the 3 branches have a bit different techniques, I was told that they were very close. Of course I can only speak of what was passed down by Yamaguchi Yuuki sensei who I have only met twice. Once in 1989 and again some years later. At both occasions he travelled from Sappporo (Hokaido), where he lived, to the south of Japan by car (the last time he was in his late nineties).

Just a bit of clarification - Mr. Buyens' English is much better than my French, or Dutch, (or just about anything else, for that matter) but some might misunderstand what he wrote.

The Toyama School in Tokyo was the Imperial Army physical education training headquarters (and also the band headquarters, etc.) The staff there was responsible for developing the physical education and martial arts training programs. Some of these instructors were civilians, like Nakayama sensei, others were military, like the major that developed most of the jukendo program.

Although other schools developed original training programs (such as the Nakano intelligence school and its aikibudo and karate instruction, and the military police school aikibujutsu) the Toyama styles were meant to be adopted by the Army at large.

Regards,

LG

[Guy Buyens]

Just a bit of clarification - Mr. Buyens' English is much better than my French, or Dutch, (or just about anything else, for that matter) but some might misunderstand what he wrote.

There is no contradiction in what you wrote and what I meant, so no offence at all (and although I try to be clear in English, indeed I am not a native speaker)

The place of Toyama-ryu in army education in those days was important and the link between these efforts and the development of jukendo is also interesting. I believe even Yamaguchi Sensei used to teach kendo and jukendo in Manchuria.

Also my teacher, Inoue sensei, was especially skilled in that art (member of the best team in the Japan National Tournament and second place in the national-level individual competition twice).

[socho]

I train in Nakamura-Ryu under the Kakuseikai, hombu dojo founded by Nakamura-sensei. Will actually be in Japan next week, to train and attend our annual tai kai in Yokohama, at the Tsurumi sports center on the 23rd. (Lance, you should come visit, if you get a chance). We train in the Toyama Ryu set of forms as our foundation set (in addition to three different types of kihon), based largely on the original forms in the gunto soho developed by Nakayama Hakudo and others. We also have a seitei set of forms, used within the International Batto-Do Federation, and the Nakamura set, which is our more advanced individual 'signature' set. There are a few forms that 'overlap' between sets. We also do a kumitachi set, and practice shizan on a regular basis, as application. There is a yari vs. sword set, based somewhat on jukendo, but few people practice it.
I am personally happy to see people from each of the three main lines responding in one thread. Not sure this has ever happened before.
As for precise information on the differences, sorry. You'd have to get us all on the floor at one time and see a comparison, and that would still only show some of the gross physical differences (and similarities). Would take much longer to discern the essence and spirit of each, philosophy and rationale. Would be fun and interesting to do, though.

VR,
Dave

[dsomers]

Sounds like fun! Next time you're in FL, why dont you take an extra day, & stay to meet up.

[socho]

Thanks, David, I'd like that.

Dave

[dsomers]

If we could get a Yamaguchi-Ha practicioner to join us, that would be great too.
Have you ever seen, or practiced the Kodachi Kata that Hataya Sensei teaches? I'd be interested in seeing those, as well.

[socho]

Have seen those but not trained in them. Hataya-sensei does a variety of stuff outside of the 'normal' Toyama curriculum. We could ask one of the Florida Toyama guys to come over. At a recent tai kai in California, Sang Kim sensei (New York dojo under Hataya sensei) and I did a side by side demo of our respective Toyama sets. Was fun, got some good comments. Hope to see the vid one of these days.

Dave

[bob elder]

Interestingly enough, David Drawdy and I did Kumitachi together at a summer camp in Pa. Unrehearsed and it came of great . Bob Elder www.orlandotaikai.com

[socho]

yep, forgot about that. We'll have to do that for an embu sometime. Hey, our seniors are telling me to look at doing a tai kai in DC in 2011. Like I don't have enough grey hair.

Dave

[bob elder]

Run...don't do it! They are too difficult. Of course if you do....we could send 20 to 30 attendees. Bob Elder

[bob elder]

Also hey remember the ground? Rocks, holes in the ground, uneven terrain...deer running around..clod hoper shoes on...Bob E