Shinjuken Ryu Kenjutsu?

[Cliff Judge]

Just saw this entry on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinjuken_ryu

Anybody ever heard of this? Strikes me as a little odd.

[Fred27]

The author of the article quotes alot of Watanani references:


1. ^ Watatani, Kiyoshi: Bugei Ryuha Daijiten Tokyo Koppi Shuppanbu pg. 341-343
2. ^ http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/ind...tle=Maeda_clan, taken from Kokushi Daijiten (The Great Dictionary of National History), Kokushi Daijiten Editorial Committee.
3. ^ Maeda, Mitsutaka: Art of the Family Sword of the School of the Ten Swords (Shinjuken-ryū) pg.2 Hakusensha 1981
4. ^ Watatani, Kiyoshi: Bugei Ryuha Daijiten Tokyo Koppi Shuppanbu pg. 341
5. ^ Maeda, Mitsutaka: Art of the Family Sword of the School of the Ten Swords (Shinjuken-ryū) pg.23-27 Hakusensha 1981
6. ^ Maeda, Hironobu: Lessons August 6 1996
7. ^ Yamanaka, Albert: Nihonto Newsletter Volume I, Issue 1, p.22 JSSUS (1968)
8. ^ Watatani, Kiyoshi: Bugei Ryuha Daijiten Tokyo Koppi Shuppanbu pg. 342
9. ^ Nara, Minechiku: Shinjuken-ryū: The Ten Swords of Fate pg. 159 Iwanami Shoten 1999
10. ^ One Big Family Genealogy page, http://www.onegreatfamily.com/surnam...92&PID=1546952
11. ^ Nara, Minechiku: Shinjuken-ryū: The Ten Swords of Fate pg. 203 Iwanami Shoten 1999
12. ^ Nara, Minechiku: Shinjuken-ryū: The Ten Swords of Fate pg. 159 Iwanami Shoten 1999


If the article is true than this Ryu is by far the oldest still in existance, preceeding Nen-ryu by 100 years.

[Kendoguy9]

::sniff sniff:: I smell BS.

[Chris Hellman]

A quick check on the net (in Japanese) revealed nothing, which is not, in itself, proof of anything. I'll have a look at Watatani next time I get the chance and check out the reference.

Chris Hellman

[hyaku]

I like wikipedia with its knowledge base shared among us, but as it is a on an amateur basis a lot of b.s. is also published on there with no one checking out pertaining facts. I have attempted to try and find a way to get ficticious stuff deleted but all I get is "In dispute". You can even publish your own info and protect it from being deleted now.

[Cron]

Me japanese is not that good, but I found no entry concerning the Shinjuken ryu.

[Chris Hellman]

Well, I spent some time checking Watatani's Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. No sign of Shinjuken-ryu as far as I could see. I wouldn't say my checking skills are infallible, but it certainly didn't jump off the page at me.

[Fred27]

I did some digging on wiki. The author of the Shinjuken ryu article made this comment on another Wiki-editors talk page:

I do not appreciate the threats of a blocked account by a non admin. ryulong drew incorrect conclusions about the article that was written and seems to have some sort of personal issue with the content. Shinjuken-ryu is indeed a real style and is in fact on 3 separate japanese websites. Diane Skoss of koryu.com, the foremost expert on martial arts lineage, is currently writing a book that Shinjuken-ryu composes one third (136 pages) of. It was solely a family style and not taught to outsiders. Used since the late 1300's it has served the second most powerful family in all of Japan behind the Tokugawa. A Maeda was responsible for the branch off of Shinkage-ryu and two other well known kenjutsu schools. Oda Nobunaga trained in it briefly and Tokugawa Ieyasu called it "The strongest style he had ever seen used in battle. Maeda Toshinaga looked invincible in battle!" (Taken from the Nikkō Tōshō-gū, a Shinto Shrine where Ieyesu's writings are intact still. Refers to the Battle of Sekigahara). I understand if you feel that Shinjuken-ryu is not notable enough for inclusion and I am not upset with your decision at all and in fact I respect your choice as WP could be clogged with obscure, irrelevant entries. I just want to clarify that the style is real and I would like to know why ryulong thinks he is all powerful on WP to the point of talking to me like that. Thank you for your time.

[Diane Skoss]

"Diane Skoss of koryu.com, the foremost expert on martial arts lineage, is currently writing a book that Shinjuken-ryu composes one third (136 pages) of."

1. Never heard of Shinjuken-ryu. Never.
2. I'm not working on any book at this time. I am working on some DVDs.
3. I am not the foremost expert on martial arts lineage. I'm not much of an expert in anything, except living my own life.

What is up with people?

Cheers!

Diane Skoss

[Fred27]

What is up with people?

Cheers!

Diane Skoss

On the plusside: Unless there is another "Diane Skoss of koryu.com" that guys credibility has effectively been shattered.

[DDATFUS]

2. I'm not working on any book at this time. I am working on some DVDs.

Sweeeeeeeeeeeet.

[Ken-Hawaii]

And if there IS, won't Meik be surprised!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fred27]

Well, I spent some time checking Watatani's Bugei Ryuha Daijiten. No sign of Shinjuken-ryu as far as I could see. I wouldn't say my checking skills are infallible, but it certainly didn't jump off the page at me.

So there is no mentioning of these following Watanani-sourced quotes:

Shinjuken-ryū is a traditional school (koryu) of Japanese martial arts, specifically sword fighting, founded in 1273 A.D. It was developed from the Sugawara clan style by Maeda Taka Mizu of the Maeda clan [1], which itself was a branch of the Sugawara clan

(page 341-343).

The name Shinjuken-ryū translates closely to 'The True School of the Ten Swords' and refers to it being similar to having ten arms with ten swords when it is used properly by an adept.[4]

(page341)

The style also uses deep, even curved swords usually associated with Soshu style blades, and the style is listed in Kyôho Meibutsu Cho (a book of famous swords and swordsmiths) as 'the perfect style for taking advantage of the Kotegiri Masamune's beautiful architecture and shape."[7][8]

(page 342)

If not, then I'll pull the source-tags.

There are other sources written by "Maeda, Hironobu", "Maeda, Mitsutaka" and "Nara, Minechiku".
Anyone know of them? The name "Maeda" seems to be a giveaway of their POV.

[DDATFUS]

1273 ad? That would make it about a century older than Nen Ryu, which is the oldest extant koryu that I can think of. Amazing that a style some two centuries older that TSKSR and a century older than Nen Ryu has escaped the notice of all these koryu scholars. Particularly if Watatani references it... something passeth not the smell test.

[Fred27]

1273 ad? That would make it about a century older than Nen Ryu, which is the oldest extant koryu that I can think of. Amazing that a style some two centuries older that TSKSR and a century older than Nen Ryu has escaped the notice of all these koryu scholars. Particularly if Watatani references it... something passeth not the smell test.

Yeh I agree about what it sounds and smells. . If any reference mentioned is false than yes it is removed. Its not so easy to simply delete the article however due to wikipedia neutrality. It doesn't matter if we here are convinced the 800-year old history is BS: But there is a Shinjuken ryu and they themselves believe its 800-years old and so on, which means it has a right to exist as an article. Its like an wiki-article on any religion: It may be BS in the real world, but thats not a legitimate reason to remove it.

What we can do is to remove the invalid sourcing (Watanani), tag the article that its contents is disputed . I would really like to hear the articles original authors response now that we've proven his Diane Skoss claim is BS.