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Thread: Koshinage & Daito-ryu

  1. #16
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    Default Thanks Walker

    Great video,
    I see now that the technique is not at all related to koshigaruma - my mistake!.

    It is interesting to note that it appears to have come from the soden books said to have been Takeda sensei's provenance and not Ueshiba sensei's. I have read about how Aikido's koshinage was said to have been from Ueshiba's studies in another ryu, now it seems possible that he derived it from Takeda sensei's teachings. To verify the Koshinage waza's provenance with Takeda I think we would need to ask Amatsu sensei. I would not be surprised if it did turn out to be from Ueshiba sensei.

    I am not really qualified to comment about the techniques "real world" effectiveness, however it is an interesting question.

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    Re: Takumakai video. The koshiguruma at 1:54 is the same one we do in the mainline of Daito-ryu. It is in the nikkajo section. We have a number of body to body type of throws in our line of Daito-ryu within the Hiden Mokuroku. I'll try to write more when I have the chance.

    Happy New Year!
    Christopher Covington

    Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
    Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho

    All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.

  3. #18
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    Default aiki koshinage


  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walker View Post
    Takumakai Demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBT5uWCbH8Q

    Koshi technique at 1:55
    This is what I mean "juji koshi nage". Same kind you find in Iwama Ryu Aikido.
    Alejandro Villanueva.


  5. #20
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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 05:01.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #21
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    The You Tube link in Driscoll's article (which I linked to his name in my previous post) seems to be gone. My recollection of the YSR technique was that it was truly perpendicular (juji). I've been told that Saito's hip twist was partially due to his bad hip - he also threw his hip out on koshinage.

    Here's some other problems in truly figuring out what came from where.
    1. I've suggested, in Hidden in Plain Sight, that Takeda Sokaku started with core principals and essentially could take any technique and "aiki-fy" it. Therefore, a lot of Daito-ryu, I believe, is the result of someone "transcribing" his improvisations. I also believe that he would take techniques he observed from other practitioners and make them his own.
    2. To this end, he had several high ranking Yagyu Shingan-ryu students of his own - before Ueshiba. This could be, therefore, a case of parallel evolution, or Ueshiba learned it twice - once from his own YSR teacher and once from Takeda.
    3. No art is pristine - despite all the talk here about the "aikido koshinage," a lot of aikido shihan use a judo ogoshi - they inserted it on their own.
    4. Similarly, with all the conceivable cross fertilization, there is no proof either way that the Takumakai might not have later incorporated an aikido koshinage - a number of aikido guys have gone over to Daito-ryu. Heck, the distinction is way too big, anyway. Hisa accepted an 8th dan in aikido in the 1950's or 60's, I believe - and called his organization the Kansai Aikido Club, didn't he?

    To be sure, the world will spin just fine on it's axis without any clarification on what koshinage came from where, but it's an interesting little puzzle - sort of like tracing down the Indo-European root of a single word.
    Best
    Ellis Amdur

  7. #22
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    Default Origins of Koshinage

    After reviewing the original article from Aikido Journal cited by Nathan I have to revise my previous statement - this technique is koshiguruma with the hip used to pop uke over.

    I take Ellis's point about the potential of techniques being "Aikifyed" from other sources, however with Koshiguruma there appears to be a number of things that point to it coming from Sokaku Takeda sensei originally. While where he got it from may still be questioned by some, I have little doubt that it was within his repertoire. It is part of the Ikkajo set (the version in the AJ article originally cited by Nathan looks like the 5th waza in the Ikkajo tachiai series) and Nikajo (as stated by Kendoguy9 who practices mainline) sets as well as being recorded in the Takumakai Soden. I do still have to check with Amatsu sensei to confirm it's likely origins in the Soden version but at this stage it appears to have come from the books attributed to Takeda. It is very unlikely that it has been introduced later to the Takumakai from an Aikido source, that kind of late introduction would not really be well received.
    Last edited by Grant Periott; 2nd January 2010 at 08:50.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have in my memory that Saito Sensei performed his koshinage by bending sideways at the waist, not forward at the waist as the Takumakai clip shows.
    Not meaning to "correct" you, but there are two main themes in Saito Sensei's koshi nage as far as I understand it. The one like in "Takemusu Aikido" cover, and the one in the Takumakai clip. Heck, I must go back to traing with the Iwama guys one of these days!
    Alejandro Villanueva.


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    Default Iwama Aikido

    It would be very interesting to train with the Iwama Aikido guys! Perhaps I may get the opportunity some day.

    But for now I have enough on my plate with DRAJ!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grant Periott View Post
    It would be very interesting to train with the Iwama Aikido guys! Perhaps I may get the opportunity some day.

    But for now I have enough on my plate with DRAJ!
    Oh, you'll notice the influence of O Sensei in how Iwama Ryu and Takumakai are so close technically. Or that's what I've been told by Iwama guys.
    Alejandro Villanueva.


  11. #26
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 05:01.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  12. #27
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    Default

    Morihiro Saito, two koshinage variations versus yokomenuchi at 6:53.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeSrySq9SPQ

    I can see what Nathan means by "bending over sideways", but this is merely because the technique is slowed down for demonstration and pedagogical purposes. Tori is taught to get full extension (and thus extend uke). Done at speed, it looks much more like the Takumakai clip Doug Walker posted above. Unfortunately I've been unable, in a cursory search, to find any youtube clips of "ki no nagare" koshinage against a yokomenuchi.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

  13. #28
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    Default Koshiguruma in the Soden

    Hi Nathan,
    in answer to your question on which book/what provenance the technique is from, within the Soden books I have been advised that it is volume 9 technique 17. This book is attributed to Sokaku Takeda sensei. I will still ask Amatsu sensei regarding the technique when I see him later this year. I will also ask Kawabe sensei his views.

    The technique that is in the AJ article is from the Shoden (not soden). In the Takumakai the Shoden 118 is equivalent to the Hiden Mokuroku of Mainline Daito-ryu. Senior teachers within the Takumakai learned this set of techniques from the former headmaster Tokimune Takeda sensei. It is clear that the origin of his technique would have been from his father Sokaku Takeda sensei.

    So for me at this stage the evidence is pointing towards Takeda sensei for the origin of Koshigaruma or as you have described in Aikido "Koshinage".

  14. #29
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    Default

    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 05:01.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott View Post
    Sekigawa-ryu jujutsu has a technique called Uragaeshi that is close in principle to Iriminage (...)
    Interestingly enough, I own a series of books by Claude Falourd Sensei, a student of Mochizuki Sensei, on the then called "Aikido Jujutsu" of the Yoseikan where the Irimi Nage section is called "Ura Gaeshi"... Uhmmmmmm...
    Alejandro Villanueva.


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