Is practicing board breaking to penetrate armor a myth?
Is practicing board breaking to penetrate armor a myth?
Richard Scardina
I think this is a myth. However board breaking does have some positive aspects to it. It does teach follow through and how to strike past or through targets. On that same note, there are so many tricks in place these days so that people can do breaking it kind of takes away from any real value on breaking itself.
Practicing board breaking to break armor. I have to say that's a myth. Hands vs. metal rarely ever goes in the favor of the hand.
Last edited by samertz; 18th January 2010 at 06:12. Reason: misspelling
Scot Mertz
www.ryuhoryu.com
Thank you for your reply post.
From reading the words of By Kancho Oyama on Tameshiwari;
" However, when considering the Karate boom around the world, I am forced to admit that Tameshiwari has played a large part in making Karate popular, as Tameshiwari generally seems very attractive to people. When the Korean War broke out in 1950, a Karate exhibition was held to which many foreign personal of the Armed Forces were invited. They were not at all interested in Kata and Kumite demonstrations but when Tameshiwari was performed, the hall became as quite as still water. They were fascinated by the performances, and thunder this applause arose over the hall."
I would think that this practice grew out of the way Krate started to incoroporate such action for attention.
Was most armor small pieces of plated metal instead of a type of wood?
That said, are there any references that prove or disprove that board break was to be used to break armor?
Richard Scardina
The armor of the area is mostly all iron. A lot of the older armor is actually an iron under suit, with a lacquered iron over suit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ō-yoroi
Good stuff on wikipedia about armor construction that old karate guys would be up against. I think the fact that the uniforms were metal pretty much makes this into a myth.
A lot of stories like this are really just something put out to justify why someone was doing something with little to no actual fact base to it. Sadly Okinawan karate has a lot of these types of myths that in reality are just not possible.
Scot Mertz
www.ryuhoryu.com
does anyone have any boof references on this?
From the likes of Patrick McCarthy, Mark Bishop, etc.?
Richard Scardina
Board breaking has been around for a very long time. Follow the circus.
Jack Dempsey used to break boards, too. Rough-cut 2x12s, back in the day when the boards were clear Doug fir, and a legitimate 2". He'd break them hanging.
Lots of web sites, books, and museum catalogues on Japanese armor construction. However, a question. If karate was developed for the use of unarmed Okinawa, why were they worried about breaking armor? Remember, if everybody is unarmed, then there is no armor.
In other words, you're listening to multiple invented traditions.
Joe
http://ejmas.com
Thank you for your post.
Good response.
However, to some, Karate was not merely developed as a unarmed method of defense, as Karateka did practice with weapons.
The best response and/or logical thought, is to study armor and realised that breaking wood is not the same as penetrating metal armor. Another logic course would be, if they wanted to penetrate armor, why were'nt they practicing punching to penetrate a metal?
I still would like to see references on this myth written by reputable, percise authors
Richard Scardina
The original meaning of "unarmed" was "unarmored." Simply carrying a butcher knife or a club, or even a gentleman's sword, was not considered "armed." Thus, Athena springing fully armed from Zeus's brow is invariably shown wearing breastplate and helmet.
That said, I had never heard that particular whopper before. So, your best bet is to ask whomever it is that is telling you such whoppers what his source was. My guess is the answer will be, "Sensei Sez."
In that case, you have your answer. Sensei said it, it must be true. End of story.
Joe
http://ejmas.com
I am going to have to paraphrase here because I cannot find my copy of Funakoshi's book; "Karate-Do, My Way of Life" in it he states that breaking was something that magicians did in China for entertainment and not originally done by martial artists. Again, paraphrasing here!
Edward Koschmider
The people of the Ryukyu kingdom were conquered by the Satsuma domain in southern Japan. In Satsuma they studied a very vigorous style of swordsmanship called Jigen-ryu. I can't access youtube from work but there are several videos of the ryu on youtube. You'll know you have the correct Jigen-ryu when you see guys screaming at the top of their lungs charging a bundle of sticks and hitting it as hard and fast as they can. This sort of training is the basic training that Satsuma samurai would do before learning the more complex kata of the ryu such as empi (the same empi in Yagyu Shinkage-ryu actually, via Taisha-ryu).
I don't know where the idea of wood armor came from but I have never seen wood armor before. Most Japanese armor is made from steel plates, chainmail or rawhide. I honestly don't think anyone can break steel or rawhide armor with their hands. In this case the karateka would have to get through a barrage of razor sharp sword cuts without getting hit and than be able to set himself up to break through armor (I don't think a jab will do it ). I doubt you'll find a good source trying to *disprove* this myth because the burden of proof would be on the person telling the myth. I would be interested in seeing the source of the myth that breaking broads is training to break armor. I have a feeling the source would not be willing to try out his theory against a trained swordsman in armor. Just a guess.
Christopher Covington
Daito-ryu aikijujutsu
Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage-ryu heiho
All views expressed here are my own and don't necessarily represent the views of the arts I practice, the teachers and people I train with or any dojo I train in.
Peter Urban was one of the people who helped to spread the myth of karate and it's use against armor. Look up his comments in "The Karate Dojo". He also helped spread lots of other BS stories like nunchaku being used against samurai to smash and break armor.
Westbrook and Ratti, I seem to recall, made much the same kind of comments as to karate being used against armored samurai in their contribution to martial arts media, Secrets of the Samurai.
I do remember the wood armor crud spread around before. The Shima karate dojo in British Columbia, Canada, used to have that nonsense up on their history page. If I recall correctly, some lower quality armor used by ashigaru was constructed of bamboo in parts.
Like Joe said "Sensei sez" Must be true.
Interesting to know it's been around in the West that long. Do you have a source?
On a related note, I was interested to find out recently that Maxick, the early 20th century strongman, used to perform a trick where he knocked the bottom out of a nearly full (of water) glass bottle with a smart strike to the top using his palm. Neat physics there.
http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/time-war...er-bottle.html
Do you happen to know of any other breaking feats performed by early strongmen, wrestlers, or boxers?
Richard Garrelts
Off the top of my head, I do not recall the sources, but I do recall seeing stories about folks in SE Asia doing board breaking as far back as the 16th century, and have seen photos of Chinese street acts, probably in Vancouver or Victoria BC (definitely North American West Coast), that were taken ca. 1895.
Start by looking for the acts staged by Muslim fakir (faqir) and their Hindu equivalents in South and Southeast Asia during the Mughal era (sixteenth to nineteenth centuries). Originally, these acts were done to show the power of faith (spirit/ki/prana, what have you; examples include walking on hot coals, lifting heavy weights with one's penis, that sort of thing), and after awhile, of course some bright lad said, "Hmm, he sure makes a lot of money with that spiel."
Indian (as in British India) magicians became quite the rage in Europe in the early nineteenth century. Chinese circus acts were traveling Europe and the USA by the 1850s, and Japanese circus acts were touring Europe and the USA by the late 1860s. Barnum and Bailey, folks like that, all had their jujitsu shows.
Here, I do have some examples close to hand.
Barnum and Bailey’s circus visited Atlanta, Georgia in October 1913. Said the Atlanta Constitution: "The mikado’s jiu jitsu experts will show how even a frail woman trained in the art of Japanese scientific defense may easily overcome an assailant and slap-bang wrestling combats will be indulged in by the bulky wrestlers (shuma [sumo] men) who compose a part of the troupe." Before that, Sorakichi Matsuda wrestled Lulu, "the pine and pork fed female Samson from Georgia" (Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 1884).
For Indian magicians, see, for example, Sarah Dadswell. 2007. “Jugglers, Fakirs, and Jaduwallahs: Indian Magicians and the British State,” New Theatre Quarterly 23(1) 3-24, DOI 10.1017/S0266464X06000595, via Cambridge University Press January 16, 2007.
For stories of old-time strongmen, try David P. Willoughby. 1970. The Super Athletes: A Record of the Limits of Human Strength, Speed, and Stamina. South Brunswick and New York: A. S. Barnes.
Joe
http://ejmas.com