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Thread: Shooting as a Martial Art

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    Default Shooting as a Martial Art

    As far as the 'war arts' are concerned, I believe shooting should rank near the top. Any other opinions?

    Does anyone have any information on Hojustu Ryu other than the stuff being taught by Jeff Hall?

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    Shooting became a martial art recognized by the new, second generation Butokukai, the capstone martial arts organization of Japan, for Japanese teenagers in 1942 or so. This was part of the war mobilization effort.

    Competitive shooting is a very intense, repetitive ritual, and shooters cultivate a mindset within that ritual to control their thoughts and bodies.

    Shimazu Kenji teaches a shooting style in complete armor, I forget the name. He tried to recruit me for it when he realized I have military experience and pointed out some similarities with Western musket drills.

    I have references in Japanese for many of the old shooting ryuha, and they cover everything, including many of the skills required to make powder, etc. As far as the shooting itself goes, the schools taught disciplined unit fire in addition to individual skills.
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Thanks for the reply. I have been a competition shooter since 1978. The obvious ties between shooting and traditional martial arts is quite apparent. I have been a traditional martial artist for some time (1968) but I feel there can be more of a connection between the traditional arts and the 'modern technique of the gun'. Mr. Hall has been a martial artist for some time as well and as a police officer was exposed to firearms. I have spoken to him at length about his hojustsu but we seem to be at an impasse regarding techinique. However, I feel that there is room for more than one school but do not want to seem as if I am 'stealing' anything from him.

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    Welcome Gary. With your screen name, are you an LEO/tactical type?

    You might be interested in this thread as well:

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42136

    Jeff Hall is a former firearms instructor out here in Washington State. His "Hojutsu Ryu" is not a traditional art. My understanding is that it is his creation combining karate and firearms, which was "approved" by his karate master as a martial art.

    To each his own.

    I find the few things I've seen - like on Youtube, that is - of traditional warrior musketry to be fascinating. You'll find some interesting illustrations in Noel Perrin's "Giving Up the Gun," though I am told you can pretty much ignore the scholarship in that book.

    Maybe Lance can kick down some publicly available stuff he might have....hint, hint!
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Default Hojutsu

    Shimazu Kenji is a master of the Morishige ryu. He demonstrates the art regularly around Japan. I believe Philip Hinshelwood a police weapons and defensive tactics instructor in Australia has trained directly under Shimazu sensei in both Morishige ryu and Yagyu Shingan ryu Heihojutsu.

    Matt White
    Matt White

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    Hi Gary,

    Welcome to E-Budo. Good to see a Savannian on here. I'm not originally from Savannah, but I met my wife, who is from there, while I was stationed on Hunter AAF. I visit there every year to visit my wife's family.

    I'm a little confused. Are you looking for a modern firearms or an older system associated with Japanese martial arts?
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

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    Well!! Seems I stirred up a litte interest. Let me see if I can answer some of the questions ... Yes, I am an LEO/Tactical guy. Spent 27 years on the Savannah PD and retired last March - 25 years on the SWAT team with 13 years as Commander. Am now the Chief of Police at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah.

    I met Jeff Hall about 3-4 years ago at a conference and we discussed his 'new' hojutsu. I was very interested as it seemed to bring together two of my favorite pastimes - shooting and karate. I have been a martial artist since 1968 and a shooter since 1965. However, it appeared that Mr. Hall was not aminable at all to adapting his system from the 'Weaver Style' of shooting to allow the 'Isoscles' stance. We had some very 'spirited' via e-mail and telephone. I haven't heard from him in some time. Ahh, what might have been ...

    I would really like to compare and contrast some of the older traditional shooting systems with the stuff I teach. I will do some more research and try to post some of the results.

    Thank you all for your time and information.

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    Gary:

    When speaking of the Weaver and Isoscles, how do you feel about the Isoscles as a combat shooting posture as opposed to bladed postures as used in systems like CAR?
    Jason Chambers
    Owner,
    Tatsujin Photography & Design

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    Morishige-ryu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njbOPl7BIWk
    Longer set - note Shimazu sensei off to the right, directing the firing unit. At 2:12 you'll see the elevated firing position.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3DB73jewGo

    Stills, but they go off on other topics later

    http://images.google.co.jp/imglandin...mIveYM&start=0
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Lance

    Have you seen any paintings or any ryu that shoot the smaller handguns two handed?

    Any that draw and shoot?
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Lance

    Have you seen any paintings or any ryu that shoot the smaller handguns two handed?

    Any that draw and shoot?
    These are all matchlocks, not given to quick employment, I reckon. Although the pirates did it!

    I would have to dig around, but am busy in a more modern gun deal, maybe later. But I would not hold out much hope - most of what I've seen was massed fires of maneuvering groups of men on the battlefield, as you see in the firing lines advancing, and the cartwheel.

    Lance
    Lance Gatling ガトリング
    Tokyo 東京

    Long as we're making up titles, call me 'The Duke of Earl'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Chambers View Post
    Gary:

    When speaking of the Weaver and Isoscles, how do you feel about the Isoscles as a combat shooting posture as opposed to bladed postures as used in systems like CAR?
    You didn't ask me but I will weigh in with my opinion. Siddle's book "Sharpening the Warriors Edge" chronicles the effects of stress on the body and the resulting effects on shooting stance (Westmoreland and Burroughs studies)-Those who are trained to shoot Weaver revert to Isoscles under stress. Yup-I know there are those who say it doesn't apply to them.
    Look at all the cop shooting videos. Count how many are using the Weaver and how many use the Isoscles. All but a few are the "I" I've only found one where the "W" is used. Do what I did a few years ago-call the departments and see what they train and you will find out that no matter what they train the majority will shoot from the "I".
    If you are interested I did a study 10 years ago on the effects of stress on accuracy, training methods to increase shooting rates during stress and the effects of "Combat" breathing. If you want the short version check out Siddle and Grossmans site Warrior Science and you'll find an article by me on the subject.
    http://www.warriorsciencegroup.com/c...cesblog/?cat=4
    If you are interested you can access them at the Calibre Press archives or e-mail me and I will send them to you.

    Duane
    Duane Wolfe

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    I've been a PPCT insturctor for many years and know Bruce and Harland Westmorland. I have read Harland's paper and seen some of the vidoes he filmed for his study. Beside being an unnatural position, the Weaver was based on competition and NOT combat as many folks believe. They have manufatcured reasons why the Weaver is a combat stance - the bladed position protects you better, etc. The 'classic' Weaver has seven different things that have to be done for it to be correct. That is NOT going to happen under the stress of a lethal threat. As far as systems like CAR, some folks can do anything if they practice enough. The natural position you are in when shooting from an Isoscles is far batter as a fighting stance than just about anything else. Another item many 'combat handgun instructors' seem to forget are the high end competition shooters. If someone is paying the bills and feeding their children by shooting, I feel very strongly that we should pay close attention at what they are doing and how they are doing it - and NONE of them shoot a Weaver stance. That alone speaks volumes.

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    I might also add that the bladed position specifically exposes the arm holes in your vest to a shooting threat. It is also weaker if the engagement ends up being at contact distance.

    Matthew McNamara offers this in the latest issue of Tatical Edge:

    "...the best shooting platform or stance is
    the one you are in when you need to make
    a surgical hit, and this will probably not
    be the stance you drill on a flat range, on
    steady ground upon which you are stationary.
    You must be able to make shots around
    teammates and innocent people, while in
    the most precarious of positions, and while
    moving to a point of tactical superiority."
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

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    Default Morishige ryu hojutsu

    Hi Kit,

    In Morishige ryu which is based on naval bujutsu (Shimazu Kenji) we only use the cannon and hinawaju today.

    Regards,
    Philip


    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Lance

    Have you seen any paintings or any ryu that shoot the smaller handguns two handed?

    Any that draw and shoot?
    Philip Hinshelwood
    Yagyu Shingan Ryu 柳生心眼流
    www.shinganryu.org

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