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Thread: Shooting as a Martial Art

  1. #16
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    Actually, do any currently practiced ryu use the old handguns? The pic in the link Lance provided showed the one guy.

    Do any of these ryu contain "room clearing" type techniques? CQB for when battlefield lines were broken? I suppose they would just transition to tachi/kodachi. Any forms where they go from gun to tachi?
    Kit Leblanc

    In Harm's Way

  2. #17
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    Default Morishige ryu

    Quote Originally Posted by Hissho View Post
    Actually, do any currently practiced ryu use the old handguns? The pic in the link Lance provided showed the one guy.

    Do any of these ryu contain "room clearing" type techniques? CQB for when battlefield lines were broken? I suppose they would just transition to tachi/kodachi. Any forms where they go from gun to tachi?
    Kit,

    I cannot comment on the other two traditions Seki ryu and Yo ryu. In Morishige ryu Shimazu Shihan has not instructed me nor have I seen the old handgun (Tanzutsu) used. That's not to say it's not used.
    There are no "room clearing" techniques in Morishige ryu like we (police) experience in modern LE tactical training.
    Shimazu Shihan has instructed me on transition from hinawaju to tachi then to kacchu yawara when the gap is closed.
    I have practised/trained both 'live fire' and 'dry fire' with the hinawaju and
    I have studied the following kata, Ihanashi no kata. Hizadaihanashi no kata. Chuhanashi no kata. Tachihanashi no kata. Gyakuhizahanashi no kata. Moroorihanashi no kata. Koshihanashi no kata.
    The licences are, Shoden, Kirigami, Mokuroku, Kaiden.
    Regards,
    Philip
    Philip Hinshelwood
    Yagyu Shingan Ryu 柳生心眼流
    www.shinganryu.org

  3. #18
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    You are right Kit or rather McNamara is. You get what you got. As someone who has been in his share of altercations I can speak from experience, you have to be prepared for anything at anytime. But, we should train toward what we will do naturally or instinctually and not try to 'manufacture' a response. The Weaver stance is a manufactured position built for competition and not a fighting platform.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gatactical View Post
    The Weaver stance is a manufactured position built for competition and not a fighting platform.
    The advent of the Weaver came about at shooting competitions attended by Jeff Cooper. When Weaver showed up with his new stance and waxed everyone it was decided it was the way to go. This was the 50's I believe and his revolutionary two handed hold was beating all those holding the gun with one hand-and the "Modern Technique" was born.

    Duane

  5. #20
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    That's correct. Deputy Jack Weaver figured out that in this case two was better than one. The problem, if you want to call it that, is that Cooper in all his wisdom, developed a 'system' based on a technique that was configured for competition and not combat. While many initially used the Weaver in competition, some taught it as the next iteration in 'combat' shooting. This is where the 'problem' begins to surface. The Weaver has too many 'things' going on to make it a truly effective combat tool. If you have enough time and appropriate cover the Weaver will work very well. But under the REAL stress of an up close lethal confrontation, the stance generally falls apart. You may be able to train your way out of a instinct driven response under certian situations (like blinking when someone strikes at your face) but when the chips are down, all the natural/normal/instinctual responses will drive the train. As I have stated before, if the Weaver is a good as it is supposed to be, then why don't the top competitive shooters use it or the best instructors teach it? Cooper offered a tremendous amount of information for combat shooting but like any other martial art, its time to make the changes necessary to improve it.

  6. #21
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    Of the officers I know trained in weaver NONE has ever taken the stance under a shooting situation-always instinctivly taking the Isoc. position. Like I said before I have one video of an officer using a Weaver in a shooting. In that case the suspects are fleeing a robbery where on suspect has already been shot by the off-duty officer. He follows the others outside and then take a weaver position-the suspect vehicle is dozens of yards away. He takes a kneeling position in the street and fires.
    I use it as an example of stress and positioning. When the threat is close and immediate you respond instictually. When the threat is far away and less immediate you may revert to your training.

    Duane

  7. #22
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    Makes a lot of sense to me and I have seen the same thing. Again, distance and time played a part in using the Weaver. As far as kneeling is concerned, the Weaver 'type position' seems to fit that a bit better because of the body mechanics

  8. #23
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    Gentlemen,

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Weaver also one of those "accidents" that came about because Jack Weaver had been previously injured, and holding the gun in this method was comfortable and successful for him, and ergo endorsed by Jeff Cooper?

    Best,

    Dave

  9. #24
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    Never heard that. The only 'story' I have heard was that he had the idea to use both hands on the gun to allow him greater control and hence, accuracy.

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