Has anyone noticed?

[Jeremy Williams]

Has anyone noticed the deafening lack of crowing from non-kenshi in response to the plethora of negative publicity flowing from recent threads regarding SK?

Of course, it may be down to the fact that most of the contributors to e-budo are intelligent and decent people.

Mind you, it could also be that we are not the first, and most certainly not the last, organization to have to weather such problems.

I don't think you have to look to far in the MA world to find lurid accounts of schism and demise. It's a pity, but survivable. But what makes it survivable?
I suspect the underlying quality of the art itself, irrespective of politics and the bad behavior of the few (alleged or otherwise).

So the question: If the Honbu and all its staff were to be wiped out by an unprovoked attack by Godzilla tomorrow, would you continue? And, if so, why?

I ask this, because it's not clear to me reading through many of these threads as to how much people's dissatisfaction is down to disagreements with the Honbu and its policies and how much of it is down to doubts about the art itself.

[dirk.bruere]

So the question: If the Honbu and all its staff were to be wiped out by an unprovoked attack by Godzilla tomorrow, would you continue? And, if so, why?

I ask this, because it's not clear to me reading through many of these threads as to how much people's dissatisfaction is down to disagreements with the Honbu and its policies and how much of it is down to doubts about the art itself.

If Hombu were to be wiped out tomorrow Shorinji Kempo would prosper as a generic martial art - like "Judo", "Aikido", "Karate". Some offshoots would be sports, some almost pure Kongo Zen, and most in between.

I would continue with an international org that taught SK in order to teach KZ. Otherwise, no.

[Jeremy Williams]

If Hombu were to be wiped out tomorrow Shorinji Kempo would prosper as a generic martial art - like "Judo", "Aikido", "Karate". Some offshoots would be sports, some almost pure Kongo Zen, and most in between.

I would continue with an international org that taught SK in order to teach KZ. Otherwise, no.

Dirk,

I'm not sure judo would qualify as a generic art, though. Surely that was the name originally chosen by Jigoro Kano for his creation? However, I understand there have been offshoots since then (Kosen judo, BJJ, etc.).

Oh, nice to see you back again, BTW.

[dirk.bruere]

Oh, nice to see you back again, BTW.

Thanks, but not for long.
When my membership expires end of March I am ending my SK "career".
Off to do new things.

[PeterL]

1) Mind you, it could also be that we are not the first, and most certainly not the last, organization to have to weather such problems.

2) So the question: If the Honbu and all its staff were to be wiped out by an unprovoked attack by Godzilla tomorrow, would you continue? And, if so, why?

3) I ask this, because it's not clear to me reading through many of these threads as to how much people's dissatisfaction is down to disagreements with the Honbu and its policies and how much of it is down to doubts about the art itself.

1) I say this not to be rude, but rather to put these problems in perspective. According to your vote BSKF has 170 or so members. While this is undoubtably a big issue in the UK, I do not think in the overall SK scheme it is a big issue. I am not suggesting that it is not important and this being worked out it not important, but this is really not something that organization is likely to be worry about wether they can weather this storm. (in the perspective of WSKO, it probably is a very big issue)

2) It sounds like you are testing the waters for independence… Frankly speaking, in spite of these troubles, I suspect a great deal would be lost without help and support from Busen, imo. I am sure this has a greater effect on overseas kenshi that do not have access to many high level teachers. As far as I know there are only a couple of 7-dan teachers overseas, the rest visit representing Busen. So if Busen were not to play a role, I think that the level of SK (or whatever you would call it-) would decrease. I doubt that an organization of 170 or so would have a good chance of survival as a volunteer group, and perhaps would break down into "individual schools" .

3) From what I have read here the disagreement with Busen and BSKF is at a rather critical stage. I hope it does not come down to the dissolution or break away of some or all British kenshi.

I suspect that all of the problems that have become exacerbated because of cultural/communication issues. I hope that BSKF and Busen can overcome these issues soon. I am sure that this is a situation that no-one planned or wanted to be in, and I hope that there is a solution that everyone can accept.

Peter

[P Goldsbury]

Has anyone noticed the deafening lack of crowing from non-kenshi in response to the plethora of negative publicity flowing from recent threads regarding SK?

Hello Mr Williams,

I have been following this thread (and the other threads relevant to the problems between the BSKF and the WSKO) with great interest. I have been living here a long time and I know exactly what the problems are (from both sides of the cultural divide). It is very instructive to see how another art copes with cultural clashes between a Japanese-run Hombu, in Japan, and an overseas federation, even when that federation is (has been) run by a Japanese shihan.

E-Budo is certainly not the place to crow over such negative publicity, for the issues have to faced by any Japanese budo that is transplanted to another culture, but still wishes to retain essential Japanese roots. So I have great sympathy for the predicament faced by all three parties: the WSKO, the BSKF, and the shihan involved.

Given the Japanese preference for disseminating information only on a need-to-know basis, it is also to the good that this website has not followed the Japanese example. This assumes, of course, that people are responsible enough to realize that 'face' is a necessary element here and has to be preserved.

Best wishes,

P Goldsbury

[Steve Williams]

1) I say this not to be rude, but rather to put these problems in perspective. According to your vote BSKF has 170 or so members. While this is undoubtably a big issue in the UK, I do not think in the overall SK scheme it is a big issue. I am not suggesting that it is not important and this being worked out it not important, but this is really not something that organization is likely to be worry about wether they can weather this storm. (in the perspective of WSKO, it probably is a very big issue)

2) It sounds like you are testing the waters for independence… Frankly speaking, in spite of these troubles, I suspect a great deal would be lost without help and support from Busen, imo. I am sure this has a greater effect on overseas kenshi that do not have access to many high level teachers. As far as I know there are only a couple of 7-dan teachers overseas, the rest visit representing Busen. So if Busen were not to play a role, I think that the level of SK (or whatever you would call it-) would decrease. I doubt that an organization of 170 or so would have a good chance of survival as a volunteer group, and perhaps would break down into "individual schools" .

Hi Peter.

There are actually a lot more kenshi in the UK, probably in the region of 500.
It was that 170 were the ones who voted, the others did not, I do not know why, maybe some did not agree with a vote on something they did not believe in maybe some did not receive all the information prior to the votes, I do not know the reasons.

However I think it strange that a member who has only been part of an organisation for a period of months should have the same say as someone who has dedicated many years to the same organisation........
Thats democracy I suppose.


I don't know if "testing the waters for independence" was the original plan, but it would seem that it is the current plan, especially given that the new bskf constitution did not mention affiliation to WSKO.......
Those supporters of the constitution will argue that they left provision for affiliation to ANY organisation, or affiliation to NO organisation....... BUT this was a pretty major stumbling block for WSKO as they told us at the latest meeting.

[Steve Williams]

Godzilla.......

[Indar]

However I think it strange that a member who has only been part of an organisation for a period of months should have the same say as someone who has dedicated many years to the same organisation........
Thats democracy I suppose.

depends, there are different models of democracy;

"The "majority rule" is often described as a characteristic feature of democracy, but without responsible government or constitutional protections of individual liberties from democratic power it is possible for dissenting individuals to be oppressed by the "tyranny of the majority"".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

[Jeremy Williams]

Just a quick note: I am not "testing the waters". In fact, I am nothing to do with either WSKO or BSKF.

[Tripitaka of AA]

Has anyone noticed? See the first two posts on this thread raised in the Member's Lounge forum here at E-Budo. As yet, it is only 2 posts, but both have been supportive and saddened.. no crowing.

[Ewok]

Just my opinion - while everyone loves a little bit of internet drama, and what is going on will probably have a significant impact, there is nothing inherently scandalous or negative about it - sounds like some internal politics and power plays but nothing like 'omg everything we've been told is a lie' or 'our sensei ran away with all our money' kind of thing.

I can't really see people getting worked up about this if they have no relation to SK.