Visiting Kenshi and Dogis

[luar]

Are there branches that allow visiting kenshi to practice without their dogis? I personally don't get this but I just responded to an email from a backpacking kenshi from NZ who was hoping she did not have to bring her dogi with her. Fortunately, I am trying to see if she can borrow a clean dogi from one of our kenshi but at least she had the courtesy to ask as you should see some of the attitudes I get. We once had a visiting black belt from Europe who insisted that he was a student of a Sensei whom you all know and that in his dojo this would not have been a problem nor was this a problem when he had visited other branches during his travels. What a 'tude he had.

To me this is basic protocol and part of our training and has nothing to do with the unified-logo or in this case uniform. What say you?

[David Dunn]

We once had a visiting black belt from Europe who insisted that he was a student of a Sensei whom you all know and that in his dojo this would not have been a problem nor was this a problem when he had visited other branches during his travels...

Ahem. This news reached home Raul

I guess if you go backpacking, taking a dogi with you is a significant extra weight. I think your solution is a good one.

[luar]

Ahem. This news reached home Raul

I guess if you go backpacking, taking a dogi with you is a significant extra weight. I think your solution is a good one.

Ha ha... Well to be fair, there was a miscommunication on my part between this kenshi and I which led him to assume he could practice with us. I apologized profusely for that but he was clearly upset about not being allowed to practice.

[Tripitaka of AA]

I took mine with me to the USA when I had only been studying for a couple of months. I was travelling light - but taking my dogi seemed like a good idea at the time. I would have felt pretty stupid if I had come home without using it though. Fortunately the nice folks in San Francisco were in the telephone book. For the record, I had travelled to New York on PeopleExpress budget airline and decided on a whim to get a bus to San Francisco. I was 19, travelling alone and had not a care (or a lick of sense). My luggage was light -I only brought three cassette tapes to listen to. I only wish I could have squeezed in another couple of dojo.. but two weeks was all I had (and the USA is, I discovered, a rather large country)




But do beginners have to buy a dogi before they train at a class? I recall a flexible approach to this matter at my club.

[JL.]

Gassho!

Well to be fair, there was a miscommunication on my part between this kenshi and I which led him to assume he could practice with us. I apologized profusely for that but he was clearly upset about not being allowed to practice.

Well, that would upset me, too. Frankly I wouldn't possibly imagine to refuse someone training just because they didn't wear a dogo. After all, most beginners don't.
I agree that it is more courteous to bring a dogi or arrange for one to be there on arrival. But isn't the most important part to train together, not the formalities? If someone travelled thousands of kilometres to train with me I would most definitely not refuse that on the grounds of formalities!

Kesshu,
______ Jan.

[Rob Gassin]

I take my dogi everywhere with me.

In Melbourne, we do prefer visitors to bring their dogi. However, we would not prevent them from training if they did not have one, just as we would not prevent a beginner or a visitor form another style.

In fact, we currently have a visiting university student from Ireland, who has never done SK before, he is staying in Melbourne for 3/12 then returning to Ireland. We do not expect him to buy a dogi for 3 months practice.

From the other perspective however, every travelling kenshi is a representative of (ambassador for) his Branch and should make every effort to behave in a manner that reflects positively on the Branch. Wearing a clean, ironed Trade marked dogi and knowing basic protocol goes a long way towards this.

[PeterL]

To me this is basic protocol and part of our training and has nothing to do with the unified-logo or in this case uniform. What say you?

I live in Japan and visited the Toronto Branch (McCulloch-sensei was kind enough to allows to join them). It was a great experience but I think it would have been equally great if we had not carried our dogis. I travelled with my two sons (ages 11 and 6) and the three dogis in our two suitcases (one was a piggy) was quite a space problem. (BTW, McCulloch-sensei did not say there was any requirement to bring them, we brought the dogis because we wanted to train in them- He was very kind and welcoming).

I must say that I would have to carefully consider home many times I would be able to train before I carry my dogi again. I would hope that I would be welcome to train without my dogi if I were traveling.

best regards

Peter

[luar]

I don't doubt this is a gray area for some depending on the circumstance but if I know I am going to be visiting a dojo, I will bring my dogi even if the hosting sensei told me it was not necessary. I think it's a sign of respect, discipline, character, willingness to learn and sets an example for the juniors. As Rob says, it also reflects the branch and teacher. I think it also reflects self-reliance and I don't expect the rules to bend for me just because I am a visitor. I certainly would not show up at a Hombu camp wearing my running pants and a t-shirt. Thinking about it some more, I had a real hard time practicing at Aosaka's Sensei's class a few years ago. He barely allowed me to join his class. I don't think he would have let me in the door if I had worn my Bermudas.

[Tripitaka of AA]

It is sometimes recommended to take a letter of introduction, as a courtesy, which brings us back to "every travelling kenshi is a representative of (ambassador for) his Branch" (as Rob said).

As you don't know the host club, or particularly the host Sensei, it is always a good idea whenever possible to err on the side of caution in matters of etiquette. I suppose when you own training is carried out in a very relaxed and informal atmosphere, it must be difficult to imagine any other way. Which is why this thread might be just the ticket!

Kenshi planning a trip abroad (or even within their own country) ought really to make some preparations if they hope to train at dojo that they have never visited before. Whether they realise it or not, being a visitor carries some responsibility, as Rob suggested. The Sensei of a club has the right to choose his kenshi, to decide whether to teach someone or not. There is no right to study. When you look at it this way, it starts to become obvious that a visitor needs to exercise some diplomacy in his approach. Good manners and, dare I say it, old-fashioned etiquette, can go a long way to give a good impression.

Would it be an over-simplification to suggest that the clubs that require this behaviour, are more likely to be those that have Japanese instructors?

[PeterL]

Hi Raul Thanks for your comments.

I certainly would not show up at a Hombu camp wearing my running pants and a t-shirt.

I think that there is a difference in going to a SK camp, or traveling for another purpose and trying to visit another dojo within the restraints of the initial purpose of traveling. One of the things that is always stressed in Shorinji Kempo by Busen instructors is that we should take every opportunity to train and network with kenshu from other doin/dojo.

I also would like to train in dogi (I have never trained without one- and would certainly feel odd or perhaps self-conscious without one) , but I wonder which is better, to not go to a new place and train/network with other kenshi because you do not have a dogi, or to go without a dogi and train and network with other kenshi.

To my mind the second seems more in the spirit of Shorinji Kempo. I was recently in Portland (but did not know they had a branch) on business. Had I know they had a branch I would have wanted to visit and would not have been able to carry a dogi. Do you think it would have been disrespectful to ask to train there without a dogi?

•Whether they realise it or not, being a visitor carries some responsibility, as Rob suggested.
•Good manners and, dare I say it, old-fashioned etiquette, can go a long way to give a good impression.

***Would it be an over-simplification to suggest that the clubs that require this behaviour, are more likely to be those that have Japanese instructors?

•• completely agree

***My experience here in Kagawa has been that that everyone is very welcoming and flexible. It is my impression that in Japan things are more flexible (in many ways). In general (not referring to Shorinji Kempo) , in Japan I think it is safe to say that the are rules/regulations/ and the there is the way things really happen. Japanese, in business love the term, by mutual understanding/agreement which I think is a reflection of how things are done. It is my impression (I may be completely wrong here) that the overseas branches are much more regulation centered that the Japanese ones I have seen. ( except Busen)

Leon? what has been your experience?

Cheers

Peter

[Rob Gassin]

***My experience here in Kagawa has been that that everyone is very welcoming and flexible. It is my impression that in Japan things are more flexible (in many ways). In general (not referring to Shorinji Kempo) , in Japan I think it is safe to say that the are rules/regulations/ and the there is the way things really happen. Japanese, in business love the term, by mutual understanding/agreement which I think is a reflection of how things are done. It is my impression (I may be completely wrong here) that the overseas branches are much more regulation centered that the Japanese ones I have seen. ( except Busen)

My (limited) experience is that Japanese instructors outside Japan, act more Japanese (or at least the western stereotype of Japanese) than Japanese Instructors in Japan. What I mean by this is that they run their Branch in a more regimented way. My original Japanese sensei rationalised this by stating that being strict and sticking to rules enhanced the respectability of the Branch. My feeling is that bring strict and sticking to the rules was his way of
dealing with his stereotype of westerners. That is, a group of people less likely to follow instructions or respect authority, than his Japanese peers.

Cheers,

[Tripitaka of AA]

There is an altogether more serious set of reasoning that comes into this situation, which hasn't really been mentioned yet.

Trying to see it from the instructor's point of view; when you welcome a beginner to the class, you assume a total lack of knowledge and base the training on that condition. Once you have been able to assess their abilities, you can progress their training according to some prescribed criteria - the kamokyuho - which is structured to promote safety and grdually introduce the more risky techniques after familiarity has been achieved with basic concepts.

If a kenshi arrives at your door and says, for example, "I am a 2-Dan, from XXXville, please may I join your class today", then some of the assumptions will need to be verified. A responsible instructor will need to devote a fairly significant amount of time to assessing the kenshi's abilities before allowing him to either a) something that might hurt him if it is beyond him, or b) do something that might hurt someone else. Just saying your rank, doesn't really say everything about your abilities, does it!

Some dojo are very different from others (even with the rather unique quality control system that operates within WSKO), and we are all aware that some kenshi are harder/faster/stronger/weaker/slower/brutal/timid than others. The members of a dojo grow and learn together as a group, with the seniors within the club being well aware of each other's capabilities and showing a great deal of care to their juniors. A stranger from another place will inevitably take a little while to become familiar with the surroundings and whatever differences might exist in training. From a safety aspect alone, it is important that the visiting kenshi be a careful, courteous and keen student.

Being a stranger in a club is quite different from a seminar/gasshuku that collects different clubs together, where everyone is sharing that novelty and the instruction is being given accordingly. The instruction at such events is often modified from a regular session, specifically to account for the variation in ability and how things are done in different clubs. So if, as a kenshi, you have been to a dozen seminars and had a great time training with kenshi from other clubs, it would be natural to want to train at new dojo when the opportunity arises. It just takes a bit of forethought to realise that it might not be the same as a gasshuku.

Training at other dojo is a fantastic thing. But you need to think about it in advance and make whatever preparations that you can, ahead of time. I'll never forget the welcome I received from the Kenshi in San Francisco, and the effect it had on my attitude toward training in general. I felt part of the family and that was really good. It was a little inconvenient for the hosts as I had come when their main instructor was away in Japan, and I had no way to identify myself other than the WSKO membership card - a letter of introduction from a "known" instructor would have gone a long way to help. Fortunately for the club, I was a novice white belt newbie and they really didn't need to entrust me with anything more than the lowest techniques.

[Rob Gassin]

David,

there is a lot of truth in what you wrote. However, in practice, it is fairly easy to determine the level of proficiency of a kenshi by observing their knowledge of etiquette, and their performance during kihon and basic hokei.

Cheers,

[luar]

There is an altogether more serious set of reasoning that comes into this situation, which hasn't really been mentioned yet.

Trying to see it from the instructor's point of view; when you welcome a beginner to the class, you assume a total lack of knowledge and base the training on that condition. Once you have been able to assess their abilities, you can progress their training according to some prescribed criteria - the kamokyuho - which is structured to promote safety and grdually introduce the more risky techniques after familiarity has been achieved with basic concepts.

If a kenshi arrives at your door and says, for example, "I am a 2-Dan, from XXXville, please may I join your class today", then some of the assumptions will need to be verified. A responsible instructor will need to devote a fairly significant amount of time to assessing the kenshi's abilities before allowing him to either a) something that might hurt him if it is beyond him, or b) do something that might hurt someone else. Just saying your rank, doesn't really say everything about your abilities, does it!

Some dojo are very different from others (even with the rather unique quality control system that operates within WSKO), and we are all aware that some kenshi are harder/faster/stronger/weaker/slower/brutal/timid than others. The members of a dojo grow and learn together as a group, with the seniors within the club being well aware of each other's capabilities and showing a great deal of care to their juniors. A stranger from another place will inevitably take a little while to become familiar with the surroundings and whatever differences might exist in training. From a safety aspect alone, it is important that the visiting kenshi be a careful, courteous and keen student.

Being a stranger in a club is quite different from a seminar/gasshuku that collects different clubs together, where everyone is sharing that novelty and the instruction is being given accordingly. The instruction at such events is often modified from a regular session, specifically to account for the variation in ability and how things are done in different clubs. So if, as a kenshi, you have been to a dozen seminars and had a great time training with kenshi from other clubs, it would be natural to want to train at new dojo when the opportunity arises. It just takes a bit of forethought to realise that it might not be the same as a gasshuku.

Training at other dojo is a fantastic thing. But you need to think about it in advance and make whatever preparations that you can, ahead of time. I'll never forget the welcome I received from the Kenshi in San Francisco, and the effect it had on my attitude toward training in general. I felt part of the family and that was really good. It was a little inconvenient for the hosts as I had come when their main instructor was away in Japan, and I had no way to identify myself other than the WSKO membership card - a letter of introduction from a "known" instructor would have gone a long way to help. Fortunately for the club, I was a novice white belt newbie and they really didn't need to entrust me with anything more than the lowest techniques.

Well said mate. You also got me thinking about the dogi as being essential training equipment as well as being symbolic. I also like what you said about an instructor's pov -- I did not come to this branch to tell you my story of personal inconvenience, I came to join your kenshi in the spirit or cooperation and to learn from you. I have the proper attire and it has my branch badge to remind you where this bad-ass came from.

New York Representing, word

[luar]

My (limited) experience is that Japanese instructors outside Japan, act more Japanese (or at least the western stereotype of Japanese) than Japanese Instructors in Japan. What I mean by this is that they run their Branch in a more regimented way. My original Japanese sensei rationalised this by stating that being strict and sticking to rules enhanced the respectability of the Branch. My feeling is that bring strict and sticking to the rules was his way of
dealing with his stereotype of westerners. That is, a group of people less likely to follow instructions or respect authority, than his Japanese peers.

I recently read an interview by Ellis Amdur where he talks about the dojo structure. Prior to the militarization of Japan, the typical teacher-student relation was a very informal as it was truly based on personal relationships. What the military introduced to the martial arts was regimentation as this is the most effective way to teach en-masse and prepare the nation for war. It was his theory that this type of structure is what made it possible to export Japanese martial arts to the West. Ellis also goes on to say that he has two sons who are studying martial arts in Japan and compare to when he was young, he feels that his instruction was far more strict.