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Thread: Here a Soke, There a Soke, Everywhere a Soke

  1. #61
    MarkF Guest

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    And for a not so funny answer to your question, and the meaning of soke, iemoto system, try this link. 34th Head Master of Wanker ryu does say a lot about most people who want to be addressed as Dr. prof. dai soke of the above ryu.

    http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/show...?threadid=4521

    Mark

  2. #62
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    I wish to thank everyone once more for your interest in my essay on "soke." I also wish to request that you please refrain from reprinting the essay or from copying it. As mentioned above, I was not completely satisfied with the wording of some sections.

    I have decided to revise my essay for Diane Skoss at Koryu Books. The revised version will be much, much better. Please wait for that one.

    Thank you,
    William Bodiford
    Professor
    Dept. of Asian Languages & Cultures
    UCLA

  3. #63
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    Hi all,

    Actually, Dr. Bodiford has been kind enough to agree to include an essay on the question of the word soke in our upcoming book, Keiko Shokon, Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan. When the book comes out (probably August), I'll also post the complete essay on the web site at Koryu.com.

    Cheers,

    Diane Skoss

  4. #64
    Yamantaka Guest

    Talking NEWS FROM KORYU BOOKS

    Originally posted by Diane Skoss
    Hi all,
    Actually, Dr. Bodiford has been kind enough to agree to include an essay on the question of the word soke in our upcoming book, Keiko Shokon, Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan. When the book comes out (probably August), I'll also post the complete essay on the web site at Koryu.com.
    Cheers,
    Diane Skoss
    HURRAH!
    Yamantaka

  5. #65
    mdheiler Guest

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    Okay, I just have to play devil's advocate (sort of). I just skimmed through much of the discussion, without reading it too closely. However, it seems from this thread and from elsewhere in the world, words tend to mean whatever society wants them to mean. Therefore, I propose that we accept and support all of these individuals use of the term soke, with the understanding that for its use in America, it is defined as "really bad American martial artist who invented his own style, because he/she was unable to master any style of known historical background."

    - Michael D. Heiler

  6. #66
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    I would have to disagree.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  7. #67
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    Originally posted by Richard Elias
    I would have to disagree.
    With what, and why?

    If in response to the suggestion by Michael D. Heiler that soke means "really bad American martial artist who invented his own style, because he/she was unable to master any style of known historical background.", I agree this may be a little harsh, since there are some apparently competent martial artists refer to themselves as 'soke'.

    Soke in this context may be as amusing to Japanese as inappopriate English usage is to Americans (for example, see http://www.satoko.com/humor.htm )




    Peter
    Peter Claussen

  8. #68
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    "With what, and why?"

    With the statement you mentioned.

    My teacher is Don Angier, an American who inherited a Japanese martial tradition. He has been practicing the same art since the 1950's and is quite talented. He did not make up the art, though he may have advanced and contributed to it, that is his responsibility as the caretaker of the art. He does not use his art and his "title" to attract students, in fact, other than seminars he does not teach publicly at all. He does not make people call him soke as it is inappropriate. In the dojo we usually call him Don, sensei or sir.

    Now granted, most of those using the title soke are not truly soke. But that shouldn't redefine the term. I feel that if you are going to use a term from another language, especially in reference to something that is supposed to be from their own culture, you should use the term in the manner that it was intended. Or use a different term. But that is just my opinion. Obviously not everyone feels the same, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    There are some that need all the trapings, the fancy gi, the blackbelt with all the stripes, the oversized certificates on the wall above the trophies. And for those that are attracted by such those types of teachers are great. If a student of the martial arts is only going to look at the surface and believe only what he is told and not do his own studying. Then he will get what he earns and will never know the difference anyway. One that is truely worthy of studying the arts seriously will learn the difference. Some people are just not supposed to get it. For those few others that do the real thing is out there if you find out where to look.
    Not everyone who studies martial arts is a martial artist.

    Sorry, I got carried away there. I'll be quiet now.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  9. #69
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    Unhappy Outcome Based Linguistics

    What’s next?
    Outcome based Physics, Engineering?
    Certainly Outcome Based Martial Arts are the norm.

    Whatever....
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  10. #70
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    Agreed, there are several legitimate sokes in the land. Nevertheless I would strongly encourage anyone thinking of paying for instruction under a "soke" to conduct some serious investigations of his claims. Why? Well, according to this site, you find that of 3000 applicants, only 20 passed muster as soke: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6471 . This suggests that the odds of finding a real soke in the midst of all these self-proclaimed masters is at least 150 to 1. And the odds go way up if you discount the claims of any of the folks on that list.

    Therefore it would be easier, I think, to sign up for kendo or judo lessons at the local YMCA, and probably provide you with better instruction on average, too.

  11. #71
    Jerry Johnson Guest

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    See if I am getting this Soke thing straight. The Prof. says, basically, it's a title that really wasn't used by the Samurai, and is a modern martial arts term. A term which really is a title, e.g. CEO. which is administrative and not referring to skill, and is not widely and restrictive in its use, correct? If so, then people are making a mountain out of a mole hill about the Soke thing. That is people who claim they are in MA are 1)Overkilling on the misuse of the title to their benefit. 2) Using the title to impress others and denote themselves as being the most skilled, where clear cut boundaries are not drawn in legitimacy. Which again is to their benefit. Again a misuse. 3) Putting more weight and stress on the title then it deserves, again misusing it. 4) the ones with no doubt or gray area, not misusing the title and using it correctly at board meeting, and who may never refer or speak the word Soke and yet run their group in that tradition of monopolies. Which the title of Soke is a private matter and hidden away on a scroll some where at the most. And at the most Soke really doesn't mean much. I guess the Japanese people never heard of it, and if they do it makes them laugh.

    Now someone please correct me, cause this is really getting confusing. I am at the point where if someone ever utters the word Soke in any context I am writing it off as too weird and something I am not being involved in. Unless I am convinced otherwise, i.e. a dance group, or Geshia.

  12. #72
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    Jerry --

    That explanation is clarity itself. Thanks!

  13. #73
    MarkF Guest

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    Originally posted by Richard Elias
    the fancy gi


    Agreed, Richard. No argument, especially with the last two posts, but if one is going to use the word, should it not be at least grammatically correct and/or complete?

    It's *dogi*, not gi , dammit.

    Mark

  14. #74
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    Default It's *dogi*, not gi , dammit.

    Sorry.

    Actually, I thought it was keikogi.
    Last edited by Richard Elias; 30th April 2001 at 09:07.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  15. #75
    MarkF Guest

    Default Re: It's dogi not gi, dammit

    Well, OK if you want to get technical....

    Mark "Typing while still wearing his *judogi*" Feigenbaum

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