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Thread: Research into British Jujitsu

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Svinth View Post
    David --

    My guess is that most of the folks were taking a short course, but there is no guarantee. Think Mrs. Roger Watts and Mrs. Garrud -- they trained for years, taught for years, and the surviving photos and so on show that they were teaching very legitimate material, from a very functional knowledge base.

    Conceptually, though, you are undoubtedly correct in asserting that most of this involved self-defense training. These people weren't training to beat Yukio Tani or the Gracies on stage; they were training to throw a policeman and escape, or to throw an overconfident Liverpool docker and escape.

    In terms of books, I'm thinking Leopold McLaglen, Bruce Sutherland, etc.
    Joe,

    have you seen my book on Edith Garrud?

    I'm currently prepping something on Emily (Diana) Watts as well - there was more to her than meets the eye.

    Tony

  2. #32
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    Tony (or anyone else), do you have any info about May Whitley, the lady from my pathe news clip? I'm hoping to build a time machine to go back and ask her for a date. Perhaps a nice cup of tea and a piece of cake at the Trocadero.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  3. #33
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    I'm afraid that May is still something of a historical cypher. Best guess is that she was a student of Charles Cawkell's - he was a colourful ex-Budokwai nidan with a bit of a flair for publicity. He pops up as a baddie (and, presumably, was the behind-the-scenes instructor/fight choreographer) in several 1930s jujitsu newsreels; later became a pro-wrestler.

    AFAIK he was asked to leave the Budokwai after he accepted money for doing some demonstrations, which may explain why what he's doing in the newsreels is described as jujitsu rather than judo.

    Tony

  4. #34
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    Thanks Tony. I saw that the notes on the Pathe site included a comment that she appears to be Asian, or possibly Eurasian in ethnicity. I certainly didn't see that on first pass. The accent is wonderful 1930s received pronunciation.

    I guess I'll just have to get my time machine built (if my wife will give me time to get to the shed - she keeps asking about all the banging noises and why I've been ordering so many parts from Radio Shack and "Lazers-R-Us".
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripitaka of AA View Post
    Thanks Tony. I saw that the notes on the Pathe site included a comment that she appears to be Asian, or possibly Eurasian in ethnicity. I certainly didn't see that on first pass. The accent is wonderful 1930s received pronunciation.
    I got excited for a moment when I recalled that Yukio Tani's daughter's name was Moya, which might have been rendered as "May". She was Eurasian and was into judo/jujitsu when she was young; however, the chronology doesn't fit.

    Tony

  6. #36
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    Eugene
    You asked whether 'Juko Ryu just a name that was appropriated from Juko Kai or is there something I'm missing?'

    No you are not missing anything, Juko Ryu is a sort of acronym for Judo (Or even Ju Jitsu) and Karate Organisation, its the creation of Rod Sacharnoski, the name Juko Ryu was used when the WJJF were in some way affiliated to Sacharnoski's organisation and Rod Sacharnoski's name appeared on the certificates. When they separated from Sacharnoski, and other styles split from the WJJF many continued to call the style Juko Ryu or Juko Kai.

    Regards

    Chris Norman
    Chris Norman

  7. #37
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    http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/20...f-diana-watts/

    A mini-bio of the aforementioned author of "Fine Art of Jujutsu", including a video reanimation of some of her martial exercises.

    Cheers,

    Tony

  8. #38
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    Chris,

    Aye, several of the old hands at the BJJA (GB) refer to it as Juko Ryu. So, The school of Jujitsu and Karate.

    I managed to track down some clips of Koryu jujitsu on the internet and, yeah, the difference between Koryu jujitsu and the stuff done in the UK is massive.
    There are some similarities, but the intent, the placement of the body, even the way of performing the techniques is utterly different. Very kata like. Although a lot of the stuff done in the the WJJF/BJJA syllabus is very uke compliant anyway, so acts as something like a kata.

    Humm...

    More research is needed!

    Eugene McFadden

  9. #39
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    In 1950 Bell was apparently graded Shodan in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu in Cape Town by Dr Henry Johnston who established the "Kodokwan Jujutsu Institute" in 1928 and it seems by 1950 was running something called the "Anglo Japanese Judo and Jujutsu Society". Johnston it seems was a student of a Seishi Teppei (alternatively Seika Teppei) who apparently lived in Hong Kong. By the way Johnston was succeeded in Cape Town by Joe-Grant-Grierson who later achieved the 10th Dan (presented to him I understand by the formitable Dennis Hanover).

    Hi - could not resist responding to this one Simon! The idea that Bell studied with either Seishi Teppei or Henry Johnston, has been circulating for some time, and is quite incorrect. He is supposed to have done this while in South Africa in the airforce (Henry Johnston was based in Cape Town) - in fact Bell was never in SA at all. Even assuming that he was in SA, it was impossible for him to have met Teppei as Teppei was not in SA at the time (I know you do not make this claim Simon, but it comes up in other sources), he would have studied with Johnston for only a very brief time if he did at all, and there is also no record of him amongst the yudansha in the organization in SA back to Teppei's time. Further it is claimed as a part of this mythology that Bell learned TSR from either Teppei or Johnston. This is incorrect as well. Teppei did not teach TSR in any form, and neither he nor Johnston made that claim. The ryu he represented has been lost to the mists of history alas.

    The interesting reference to the "Anglo Japanese Ju-jitsu Society" is a case of mistaken identity - Henry Johnston is being confused with Harry Johnson 3rd dan, Budokwai International and Olympic Games Gold Medalist ( wrestling ) who had his club at the Swaffield Road evening institute in Battersea London.

    Also inaccurate is the idea that Teppei/ Johnston's organization was passed to Grant-Grierson. It was in fact passed to Grant-Grierson AND Dennis McCrea. GG eventually left Cape Town circa 1954 and McCrea continued in the capacity as president of the organization know as the Kodokwan Ju-jitsu Association of South Africa, and then subsequently the South African Ju-jits Assocation. I knew both of them. GG was subsequently graded by Dennis Hanover as an honorary grade many, many years later - as far as I know they never met, and certainly had no connections lineage wise.

    This subject interests me by the way, as I run the only remaining school which teaches Seishi Teppei Sensei's system.

    Anyhow, that is my brief foray into the always fascinating subject of Vernon Bell.
    Guy Taylor

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    oops...messed up........the first paragraph in my last rambling message is a direct quote from Simon Keegans message a short while ago! The rest is my commentary!
    Guy Taylor

  11. #41
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    Default other avenues of research

    Hey gang,
    Well, I've started looking at Fairbairn and Sykes and their combatives, I've found a website based copy of Get Tough and am finding the photos interesting. How much of an impact on British jujitsu do we think these two have had?

    http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learnin...bairn-01.shtml

    Although Fairbairn did have a black belt in judo, so there's that dirty judo link again...

    Techniques 6A and 7A are definitely in the British jujitsu syllabus.

    As is 10 and 11...

    Eugene McFadden

  12. #42
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    Hi Eugene. Someone has resurrected a long-dead thread on Budoseek that has some posts which may be of interest (if you haven't seen them already). The thread is about the World Jujitsu Federation, here. See particularly post #38.
    David Noble
    Shorinji Kempo (1983 - 1988)
    I'll think of a proper sig when I get a minute...

    For now, I'm just waiting for the smack of the Bo against a hard wooden floor....

  13. #43
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    Dave-

    Thanks, this is really helpful.

    Eugene

  14. #44
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    Well that thread had a post by someone who also had researched European Jujitsu and backed up everything I've found so far ad everything everyone's said. I'm going to put together an article for my club's website

    http://www.fudo-shin.co.uk/Fudoshincouk/Welcome.html

    Does anyone here have an objection to be quoting them?

    Eugene McFadden

  15. #45
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    Well, I've started looking at Fairbairn and Sykes and their combatives,
    You may be interested in the articles here
    All the best
    Dennis

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