Jukendo News

[Steve kelsey]

Hi E-Budo Community,

I have just started teaching regular jukendo classes here in the UK and as this is pretty uncommon system I thought it might be of interest to some of you.

I have a web site with some more details: www.jukendo.co.uk

Thanks,

Steve

[Kendoguy9]

That is a rare one! Good luck to you and your dojo.

[Hissho]

Steve

Is tankendo also taught as a stand-alone art, or is it part and parcel of jukendo practice?

Do you do paired tanken vs. tanken practice? Any video?

Good Luck with your dojo - your broad experience must make for a lot of interesting connections in your practice.

[Kendoguy9]

Dear Mr. Kelsey,

Your posted reminded me of a recent translation of the 1909 Kenjutsu Kyohan. The second part of it deals with jukenjutsu. The translation can be found here: http://kenshi247.net/blog/2010/04/19...-2-jukenjutsu/
I was wondering how different is mordern juken training to the Meiji era training? This is an art we rarely see in the west, and I find it very interesting.

Best regards,

[Steve kelsey]

Thanks for the follow up posts Christopher and Kit.

Here are some answers and follow up thoughts.

To your questions Kit:

Tankendo is a separate method, from my experience it is often, although not exclusively taught alongside jukendo. Once my students have a good grounding in jukendo, and if willing, I will introduce them to this.

The usual way of practicing is tanken versus tanken. Other combinations of practice are tanken versus juken; this is particularly interesting and all things being equal the tanken usually wins. There is also the combination of juken versus shinai (as in against a kendoka) which is definitely worth seeing and trying.

Sorry Kit I don’t have any videos to post.

Christopher your article link was interesting, thanks.

To your question: My feeling is that present day jukendo would be similar to the Meiji era practice but probably now a little more organised regarding syllabus and technique, a little less rugged and probably feels closer to a sport.

Presently the Japanese Self Defence Force train in both jukendo and jukenkakuto (which is a much more realistic combative method of using the fixed bayonet) and I bet that the original jukenjutsu would be closer to this than modern jukendo. However, I haven’t researched this and have only had a few conversations with senior jukendo teachers about this topic. Basically there is quite a lot of room for some good research and translation of jukendo and its history into English.

Regards,

Steve

[Hissho]

Thanks, Steve.

I found some video of all those things on Youtube. Very cool! I like the "grabbin' and stabbin'" stuff - and interesting to see what is patterned in koryu kata come out in a free-fight format.

[Hissho]

More thoughts/questions:

Is there a "tankenkakuto" as there is jukenkakuto?

It appears they are not allowed to defend with the left hand in the grab and stab in the shiai - is this so?

[Steve kelsey]

Hi Kit,

I really don’t know if the Japanese Self Defence Force do tankenkakuto (if such a thing exists) or any form of applied tankendo. They certainly practice tankendo but I have a feeling that they will not practice dismounted bayonet in the same way as jukenkakuto. This is because although jukendo uses an antiquated rifle length far removed from the length of a modern assault rifle, I would suggest that the basic dynamics of thrusting with the weapon remains the same for both. However, tankendo, due to its length is really short sword practice and less applicable to modern bayonets which are more like knives than swords.

On your second point; in tankendo the left hand (free hand) is supposed to be kept out of the way pressed against the left hip. As you rightly say, it can be used to grab and suppress the opponent’s weapon elbow/arm; these are pretty neat moves and can be seen in some schools of Japanese koryu (and most probably old European fencing). However, generally the hand is kept out of way possibly for both martial (stop it getting cut) and stylistic reasons.

Best regards,

Steve

[ichibyoshi]

Good luck with your new dojo Steve, I've been an avid reader of your articles in Kendo World magazine. Since practising sojutsu I have a greater appreciation of the dynamics of a purely thrusting art.

However, like Kit, I am very curious about tankendo. From the look of that Youtube video from Helsinki there appear to be as many cutting waza in tankendo as thrusting ones. Is there any difference in mindset between using the tanken as a demounted bayonet and using it as a kodachi? How does it play in practice?

b

[Steve kelsey]

Thanks for the good wishes Ben.

In tankendo there are three basic techniques; two thrusts and one strike. There is a thrusts to the mid section (the do region), a thrust to the throat (node) and lastly a strike or cut to the head (men). The last technique is actually a strike down rather than a proper cut, with the wrist become extended rendering the bayonet more like a baton than a bladed weapon. This is probably because in reality you may not be able to rely on a real working bayonet, being used in the field to open cans, dig holes etc keeping any kind of sharpness that would facilitate slicing techniques, and so being able to bludgeon the opponent around the head or drive the pointed end into the body would be the only kind of realistic techniques available. There is an additional strike/cut to the opponents wrist (kote) but I believe (and could be wrong here) this is not a scoring technique and would usually be followed with a grab or other follow up technique.

Hope that brings some more light and thoughts.

Regards,

Steve

[Orpheus]

If I may ask, what are the kinds of tactics the tanken uses to close with the juken, as you said they usually win.

Steve Baroody

[Steve kelsey]

Hi Steve,

I think the tactics for short weapon against long are pretty universal and would consist of getting inside the range of the longer weapon. If you talk to some of the koryu exponents who train with short weapons (although sword versus spear face the same problem) they will have a lot of stuff on this problem with a multitude of techniques of entry etc.

Typically in tankendo the tanken exponent would try to suppress the juken (this is the hard bit) of the other person and enter quickly to stab or strike. Of interest is that the person with the taken is allowed to grab the juken (between the hands of the opponent and not the end) or grab his arm. Once this is achieved then it is game over for the jukendo person.

Regards,

Steve

[Orpheus]

If the tanken is grabbing the juken's left arm with his left, what does he do first to get around the bayonet? Forgive me if that's a stupid question, but I see some form of luring juken to thrust, and passing it to the left before grabbing. The other question I have is could you describe the basic jukendo footwork? Ellis Amdur said in a blog (if memory serves) that the footwork is different from sojutsu, and I'm interested in the differences.

[Steve kelsey]

Hi Steve

Not a stupid question but difficult to explain intricate techniques in a forum without the use of diagrams or actual physical demonstration.

Here’s the best I can do:

To enter the tanken will need to suppress the juken end; this will mean making contact and either parrying to the side, down or what is harder, pushing the end of the juken up, and then slipping quickly past and in. The taken exponent can initiate this move or react to a thrust from the juken exponent. And yes in reality there would be a some cat and mouse, faint and counter faint by each exponent. There are a few more variations of technique but not really much more to it than that.

I can’t compare jukendo footwork to sojutsu as have no experience in the later. I would guess that the different weights of weapon, different targets and emphasis would mean that there is variation but I don’t know what.

Sorry can’t be more of a help.

Regards,

Steve

[Kendoguy9]

Mr. Kelsey,

Thank you for taking the time to answer so many questions. It is very exciting to chat with a jukendoka. You mentioned that the tankendoka can grasp the rifle between the hands or the jukendoka's arm. Are there formal techniques taught to the jukendoka to deal with this situation? The length of the juken is to great to do much damage to someone inside that close. Are there yawara-like techniques he may use? I'm thinking some sort of taiatari? It seems like a last ditch effort, and it might even help the tankendoka to stab him but better than just giving up I guess. In one video I saw of tanken vs. tanken it looked like they were grabbing the bogu as they came in for the thrusts. This looks like very brutal training. I think training like this could help anyone's unarmed budo.

It seems like jukendo/tankendo offers a lot to the student. Too bad it is so rare. Your students are lucky.

Best regards,