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Thread: Why Eishin Ryu??

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    Default Why Eishin Ryu??

    Hi, one thing that remains a mistery for me is why Nakayama Hakudo, the kendo no kamisama, already menkyo kaiden in a very well iai-equiped ryu, went to kochi for learning Eishin Ryu; So big was the prestige of this school? What are the foundations of that prestige? (since there were several ryu derived from Hayashizaki jinsuke Shigenobu, this wouldn't be the reason)

    I'm missing something? I'm missing the point entirely?? Any thoughts are welcome

    Sorry for my english
    No weapons? Not martial.

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    Because Eishin Ryu is the best?

    Here's one possible answer: MJER history 1: Nakayama Hakudo.

    Oe Masamichi was a reknowned swordsman, eventually receiving the title of hanshi from the Butokukai*. Training under him or his students likely carried a certain prestige.

    Reading through martial arts history it seems not uncommon to receive tuition from multiple teachers. There seem to be many accounts of students going off to refine their techniques with other teachers, schools, etc. This practice carries on today. My teacher, himself Menkyo Kaiden, chose to affiliate with Iwata sensei of the Roshukai after the death of his first teacher.

    *Some sources say Nakayama was the first to receive the title of hanshi, Oe being the second.
    無雙直傳英信流・日本古武道居合研究会 - Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu ・ Nihon Kobudo Iai Kenkyukai
    東京蘆洲会 - Tokyo Roshukai

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    A student of Nakayama Hakudo's lineage occasionally posts on this forum. I'll make sure he knows about the thread; he usually has pretty in-depth knowledge on this sort of thing.
    David Sims

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    My opinion is, in all likelihood, worth exactly what you are paying for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wakimono View Post
    Hi, one thing that remains a mistery for me is why Nakayama Hakudo, the kendo no kamisama, already menkyo kaiden in a very well iai-equiped ryu, went to kochi for learning Eishin Ryu; So big was the prestige of this school? What are the foundations of that prestige? (since there were several ryu derived from Hayashizaki jinsuke Shigenobu, this wouldn't be the reason)

    I'm missing something? I'm missing the point entirely?? Any thoughts are welcome

    Sorry for my english
    From which ryu was Nakayama a Menkyo Kaiden before starting Eishin Ryu?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Spinelli View Post
    Because Eishin Ryu is the best?
    I am not an expert in these things but wasn't he a student of Shinto Munen ryu (which I believe had roots in Shinkage ryu).

    More-over we have to accept the time context. We all know that after the Meiji restoration, samurai class lost their privileges and old schools (who used to secretly train their art) came under attack. Several good swords men tried to maintain the spirit of the sword in this changing environment.

    Kendo was born thanks to the effort of some extra ordinary men, who wanted to maintain the sword spirit despite of the lack of school recognition.

    May-be studying another school was essential in that exercise. Does this make Eishin-ryu the best school. I doubt this (may-be Eishin ryu is the best school but certainly not because a good swordsmaster decided to study it; it only proves that it must have been good not the best). In fact, for me there can’t be something like the best school. There can be at a certain time for a certain school a certain teacher who is remarkable. Some schools may even have had much more excellent teachers than others but that doesn’t make them the best system. Unfortunately things are a little more complicated than that. Otherwise we would all stop doing what we do and join that single superior system.

    Coming back to Nakayama sensei, and I am not a kendo man (at least the little time that I spent with a shinai in my hands doesn’t qualify me as one), from the little I know, I believe he was an exceptional man who played a crucial role in the history of kendo. May-be he trained in other systems because of the time spirit or because of his respect for a certain teacher. Who knows.
    Guy Buyens
    Hontai Yoshin Ryu (本體楊心流)
    BELGIAN BRANCH http://www.hontaiyoshinryu.be/

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    Default Nakayama Hakudo Menkyo Kaiden

    Quote Originally Posted by ryoma View Post
    From which ryu was Nakayama a Menkyo Kaiden before starting Eishin Ryu?
    I think that he received Menkyo Kaiden in Shindo Muso ryu and maybe in Shinto Muso ryu jojutsu in this time too. Some informations about Nakayama Hakudo are in KW thread: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/sho...a-Hakudo/page2
    There I try to fact-find about Nakayama Hakudo.

    May be user Bushinkan from this forum will know more informations about reasons, why Nakayama sensei interested in Eishin ryu. I know only, that Hakudo sensei knew the some people from Tosa region (Itagaki Taisuke - politician and maybe Shindo Munen ryu practicioner and he has contacts the iai masters in Tosa).
    Last edited by birch; 26th May 2010 at 05:29. Reason: typing error

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    Default The question that drives men mad......

    This same question came up during Hakudo Sensei's memorial service last year. After the ceremony we sat down with the Nakayama family and had a brief chat. This is where one of the students posed the same question: ''Why did Hakudo Sensei study Hasegawa Eishin Ryu if he already earned Menkyo-Jo (Menkyo Kaiden) in Shindo Munen Ryu and a Mokuroku in Yamaguchi Ha Itto Ryu?''

    The answer had nothing to do with prestige, but rather skill. Shindo Munen Ryu was arguably one of the most renown schools in Japan (more so than Eishin Ryu was). As one of the Edo San Dai Dojo (3 Big Dojo's of Edo) and a long line of distingushed swordsmen from all walks of life. Peasents such as Saito Yakuro and Bushoji Yasuke became two of the best swordsmen of the Bakamatsu, while Samurai like Kido Takayoshi, Takasugi Shinsaku, and Ito Hirobumi led the rebellion that toppeled the Tokugawa and helped to established the Meiji Government. This history aside, Hakudo Sensei was already famous around Japan for his victories against: Sasaki Masanobu (Suifu Ryu). Koseki Kiyomasa (Muhen Ryu), Ozawa Jiro (Mito Den Hokushin Itto Ryu), and Takano Shigeyoshi (Edo Den Hokushin Itto Ryu). It was through these victories that he came to be called ''Kendo no Kamisama''... well before he enterned the realm of Eishin Ryu.

    Now back to explaining skill.... Shindo Munen Ryu while being a ''kenjutsu'' school has alot of Iai kata in it. These kata done in both sitting and standing positions. They have several variations and can be paired with a partner (similar to that of Suio Ryu's Iai). They are a fascinating, but... they are very rough looking in comparison to that of Eishin Ryu's (especially Shindo Munen Ryu's Suwari Iai). Munen Ryu's ''Iai'' is actually more of ''Toho''. It deals with combat in a completely different way than Eishin Ryu does however.... In Munen Ryu we use the sword as a multi-purpose tool, thus we use the sword at varrious different Maai(s) that allow use to dispatch an opponent. This usage of Maai is very different from that of Eishin Ryu's. Eishin Ryu grappels with the sword and at times during certain kumitachi discards it all together. It is a brilliant style that combines close quarter combat (yawara-ish/Jujutsu-ish/Koshi-no-mawari-ish elements to confront a foe). As one progresses though the kumitachi the Maai gets closer and closer. Daisho-zume is actually more of a ''Yawara-ish'' set of kata compared to other style like Shindo Munen Ryu, Ono Ha Itto Ryu, ect...., but I digress. The real reason was to improve his iai and understanding of swordsmenship in general. Yamaguchi Ha Itto Ryu took him only so far a young teen.... so he went to Shindo Munen Ryu after watching Hosoda Kenzo's victory over a former Maeda Clansmen. Though Negishi Sensei's training in Shindo Munen Ryu he became the best duelers in Japan at the time..... but that was not enough for Hakudo Sensei. He knew there was still room to improve (specifically in Iai)... thus he sought out Oe Masamichi, Hosokawa Sensei, and Moritomo Sensei. Not for status, but rather skill. As Eishin Ryu is one of the most profound style of iai (even expolring the use of ki in the application of iai). There are few styles that can match it and while the waza are simple looking.... the waza extends to a much more profound level of cultivation (in terms of iai) that others styles do not even explore.

    Hope this helps
    Jeffrey Karinja

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    Wow! I've trained in MJER for decades, Jeff, & had no idea about the details you've just provided.

    Many thanks!!
    Ken Goldstein
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    Judo Kodansha/MJER Iaido Kodansha/Jodo Oku-iri
    Fencing Master/NRA Instructor

    "A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it'll annoy enough people to be worth the effort."

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    @ Eric Spinelli

    "Because Eishin Ryu is the best". Nobody is biting on this!
    Sean Halpin

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    Smile The best? Wow!

    I thought he'd chosen it simply because Tosa men were the toughest ones...

    I've really couldn't guess that there is a qualitative difference between Eishin Ryu and the others
    No weapons? Not martial.

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    Default correction

    I think that he received Menkyo Kaiden in Shindo Muso ryu and maybe in Shinto Muso ryu jojutsu in this time too.
    Sorry for mistake, here is correction:
    I think that he received Menkyo Kaiden in Shindo Munen ryu and maybe in Shinto Muso ryu jojutsu in this time too.

    He started learn the Eishin ryu in year 1917 and his jojutsu sensei Uchida Ryogoro died in 1921. Is a small question - When Nakayama sensei received the Menkyo Kaiden in Shinto Muso ryu exactly?

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    If you had the opportunity, what would you do.... stick to your own school as the 'top boy', or go out and look for other 'top boys' to practise with???

    To me it is similar to anything else... if you are good at your field, you can only stay on top if you continue to 'research' and work at it... Oe sensei was in the 'top boy' group, so why not visit, you would be mad to miss out...its a bit like premier league teams, you have to play with the same league or standards drop...

    During the 'revival' of swordsmanship, exchange of ideas was quite popular and,(to me anyway), seems to have replaced 'dojo bashing', as people were genuinely interested in raising the standards of their ryu, either intellectually or technically.
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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