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Thread: Is it really needed?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Scardina View Post
    I dont see martial artists looking to boil Salix alba; Salix nigra in about 200 mls of water and create an infusion to relieve pain. In other words, make homemade aspirin.

    I dont see martial artists looking to make homemade anything but the Dit Da Jao.
    I hadn't ever heard of Dit Da Jao until now so I can't comment on it specifically. However I was somewhat disappointed to open a thread on here and be faced with the same old allopathic verses complementary medicine argument that I see all over the place.

    You see I am a herbalist (and a martial artist). I am trained in western herbal medicine and Tibetan Medicine. Yes it does work. Yes in many cases my patients have responded better to my herbal treatment than the allopathic treatment that had failed them.

    I am not saying that all allopathic medicine is bad, I am just saying please don't rubbish traditional medicine.

    I may not use Dit Da Jao, but I have a very good bruise ointment consisting of safflower oil, arnica and yarrow and I swear by it!!
    Lucy Jones

    Poole Dojo UK

  2. #17
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    The way I see it western (modern) medicine is the best when it comes to emergency care. But as far as long term care eastern medicine is better.

    I used to do IT work for a doctor's office and every time the drug reps came in all the kept saying was "it relieves the symptoms" never anything about fixing the issue. Eastern medicine tends to treat the body as a whole, the cure isn't as fast but it's a cure. You normaly don't see western doctors telling the 250+ lbs 5'8" guy complaining of all sorts of health issues to "lose the weight and exercise dumbass" it's usualy "we can give you this med or that med and you should try to lose some weight".

    Herbal medicine is where all our modern medicine comes from we just think it's better to synthesize the chemicals found in the medicinal herbs than to use the herbs themselves because of mass production and "quality control"

    sorry for the rant
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
    - Doug Perry -Hanshi, KuDan -Shorin Ryu ShorinKan

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS3 View Post
    every time the drug reps came in all they kept saying was "it relieves the symptoms" never anything about fixing the issue. ......

    ...we just think it's better to synthesize the chemicals found in the medicinal herbs than to use the herbs themselves because of mass production and "quality control"
    Joe I so agree with you. In my original post I had put a lot of stuff in about symptomatic treatment but deleted it in an attempt to stop myself climbing too far onto my hobby horse. I am new to this forum after all!

    The sad thing about modern laboratory synthesis of drugs from herbal source material is that it loses the natural balance that a highly complex and natural mixture of plant compounds provides. In many cases the action of the more 'active' ingredients is tempered by other compounds which modify the harshness of the action and so make the treatment less prone to side effects and more likely to be sustainable.

    At a recent herbal conference I attended, one of the speakers quoted German research which had analysed Crataegus (hawthorn). Crataegus has been used for years as a cardiovascular tonic and an antioxidant. Clinical trials have supported its use for congestive heart failure and hypertension. The German researchers figured that the key active compound was a group of flavonoids called oligomeric procyanidins - usually assessed by the levels of procyanidin B-2. They set about isolating this ingredient and testing it on rats. What they found was that on its own it had no effect. So they tried the rest of the compound minus the procyanidin B-2 and that too had no effect. Finally, concluding what herbalists have known for 100's of years, they put the whole extract into the experiment and found, like the previous clinical trials, that there was a highly significant positive effect.

    Voila! Whole herb extracts aren't so bad afterall. Unfortunately with no profit driven drugs companies to fund clinical trials and similar research there are few other herbs which have been subject to such detailed laboratory based research. However with emperical evidence stretching back (in the case of Tibetan Medicine) to 500 BC I think as herbalists we can be pretty confident that herbal medicine is effective.

    I will now dismount from my hobby horse .......
    Lucy Jones

    Poole Dojo UK

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Jones View Post
    I hadn't ever heard of Dit Da Jao until now so I can't comment on it specifically. However I was somewhat disappointed to open a thread on here and be faced with the same old allopathic verses complementary medicine argument that I see all over the place.

    You see I am a herbalist (and a martial artist). I am trained in western herbal medicine and Tibetan Medicine. Yes it does work. Yes in many cases my patients have responded better to my herbal treatment than the allopathic treatment that had failed them.

    I am not saying that all allopathic medicine is bad, I am just saying please don't rubbish traditional medicine.

    I may not use Dit Da Jao, but I have a very good bruise ointment consisting of safflower oil, arnica and yarrow and I swear by it!!
    Ms Jones,

    I dont know why people have to disparate or call something Tibetian Medicine, especially in speaking of Asian remedies. Besides, one could state that Tibetian Medicine can only be practiced in Tibet. In short, Tibet is not the center or meca for herb and natural medicine. Using the word Tibetian is a gross misalignment to make something more intriguing.

    This thread or discussion isnt about such remedies working, as much as it will never surpass modern medicine and it is never accepted by the gross population of many modern societies

    People who practice natural, herbal medicine, or remedies, are not the majority in the medical field.

    In other words, such claims or practices are not fully accepted by the medical field and therefore are not to be taken as a cure for the majority of many ailments modern society now faces.

    While I do appreciate people undertaking a study in herbs and natural interests, modern medicine has far better qualities than home remedies.

    That said, I agree, that some herbs, for example Ginseng, are now widely seen in many products of consumption and have become popular in the gross population.

    Although, I applaud you grand study in the subject, I as a parent, and amongst the gross population, cannot be complacent and put absolute faith on herbal or natural remedies.
    Last edited by Richard Scardina; 14th July 2010 at 08:11.
    Richard Scardina

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    Of course you are entitled to your view on the efficacy of herbal medicine.

    I would however take issue with your disparaging remarks about me being a practitioner of Tibetan Medicine. I am not making something up to make it sound more intriguing. I studied under the late Professor Khenpo Truro Tsenum who was the professor of the Lhasa Menzikhang in Tibet. He travelled to the Samye Ling Tibetan Centre in Scotland over a period of five years in the early 1990's in order to teach a small number of students. As part of my studies I had to learn the Tibetan language and study the spiritual and philosophical traditions which are deeply embedded in the Tibetan Medical system.

    Respectfully yours

    Lucy

    (PS please don't call me Ms Jones, although I appreciate your politeness. It makes me feel like a school mistress with half moon glasses on the end of my nose.)
    Lucy Jones

    Poole Dojo UK

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy Jones View Post
    Of course you are entitled to your view on the efficacy of herbal medicine.

    I would however take issue with your disparaging remarks about me being a practitioner of Tibetan Medicine. I am not making something up to make it sound more intriguing. I studied under the late Professor Khenpo Truro Tsenum who was the professor of the Lhasa Menzikhang in Tibet. He travelled to the Samye Ling Tibetan Centre in Scotland over a period of five years in the early 1990's in order to teach a small number of students. As part of my studies I had to learn the Tibetan language and study the spiritual and philosophical traditions which are deeply embedded in the Tibetan Medical system.

    Respectfully yours

    Lucy

    (PS please don't call me Ms Jones, although I appreciate your politeness. It makes me feel like a school mistress with half moon glasses on the end of my nose.)
    OK Ms Lucy, you are linked to Tibetian medicine. The point I am making, most use certain wording to create more intrique.

    BTW, people in Tibet and such places, are not easily expose to modern medicine, so they are force to have the only thing available to them. furthing below:

    You are one of those few who have to justify a natural way or organic way to apply something to modern society. And you develop a scant of group of followers and patients in comparison to real medicine.

    I recite accounts, where people who sought these ways or methods, have suffered greatly with false beliefs, false hopes, and false representations.

    That said, I live in a society which seek out medical help via hard study in actual medicine.

    Thus all said, I still want to make it clear, that such ways, methods, remedies may or may not work, but I rather seek modern advice and multiple opinions from such, than to soley rely on "Tibetian" medicine.
    Richard Scardina

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Scardina View Post
    Not a matter of it being good enough. The issue is, is it really a neccesity without alternatives?
    What would you suggest as an alternative?
    Joe Stitz

    "Black belt and white belt are the same, white belt is the beginning of technique. Black belt is the beginning of understanding. Both are beginner belts."
    - Doug Perry -Hanshi, KuDan -Shorin Ryu ShorinKan

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JS3 View Post
    What would you suggest as an alternative?
    True Account;

    A young couple I had met are really into organic foods and natural alternatives. They became enthrawed with "natural medcial alternatives" and/or herbal medicine.

    The young lady became ill with strange symptons, I and my wife suggested to her about going to a physician.

    Instead, her and her spouse decided she would seek out a herbalist and a "natural" alternative.

    In a short span afterwards, trying such remedies, she became increasingly ill.

    Again, and my wife suggested and begged them going to a physician.

    Again, her and her spouse decided she would seek out another herbalist and another "natural" alternative.

    Her illness worsen so much, that she was non responsive on morning and he had to phone for a ambulance.

    At the hospital, it turns out she had a type of staph infection, for which the exterior skin condition appeared so minor, this couple, and those whom they sought, believed it was a type of rash.

    Sorry, when health is on the line, I rather seek out modern physicians first and foremost than "alternative" folk-natural-herb remedies and diagnosis
    Richard Scardina

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    True story. After a spate of Dr. Feelgood's patients end up dead due to overdoses of prescription meds, the state starts investigating Dr. Feelgood. His patients are so blatant that some of them sell their prescriptions to investigators, right there in Dr. Feelgood's parking lot. After documenting dozens of these examples, the state moves to suspend Dr. Feelgood's license. Dr. Feelgood skips the hearing and goes to a foreign country instead. The foreign country sends Dr. Feelgood home, because his passport is expired. Meanwhile, the state amateur boxing association lauds Dr. Feelgood for all the good he's done for the state amateur boxing program. It's hard to get a good ringside physician, you know.

    Another true story. This doctor is an orthopedist who tells people he specializes in difficult shoulder cases. Do your research, though, and you'll find that after this guy botches the first rotator cuff surgery, he will need to do a second one. By then, you'll be having trouble with your other shoulder, so he'll operate on that, too. There are malpractice suits out there, but there has never been a problem resulting in action by the Department of Health, and my guess is that some day, the surgical wing at the local hospital will be dedicated to this guy, because without all those surgeries, that hospital wouldn't have had its own modern surgery.

    Third true story. The neurologist routinely has sex with the mentally ill patient during their examinations. He then charges the insurer for their visits. Department of Health eventually censures the doctor, after the woman files a complaint that is supported in court. But, the doctor still has his license, and he's still doing examinations (though these days, hopefully with a chaperone).

    Bottom line? Get second opinions. Check Department of Health. Read MEDLINE. Then, pay your money and take your chances.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Scardina View Post
    True Account;
    Okay, here's my "True Account." When I was studying massage therapy at Ashmead College a man came to us who had suffered a crushing hand injury in an industrial accident. His hand was curled into a near fist, and he was unable to open it. His doctor had told him that surgery had done all that could be done, and that no further progress was likely.

    He came in twice a week for over two months of deep tissue massage, and then went to his doctor and showed him his fully functioning hand. That doctor, who had not had a good opinion of massage therapy, began refering some of his patients to us after that.

    But anecdotal examples are not reliable evidence. For every account of someone who was harmed by traditional remedies and saved by "modern medicine" I could cite an account of someone who was harmed by modern medicine and helped by traditional medicine, and for every account I posted you could post a counter example.

    You asked your question, and several people have offered their opinions. However, based on the tone of your responses toward some posters whose answers don't match what seems to be your preconceived notions, I don't think you're really looking for open and balanced discourse.

    I think the thread has run its course, and I'm closing it now.
    Last edited by Brian Owens; 15th July 2010 at 09:12.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

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